Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
You venerate her when there is only ONE name under heaven which should be venerated -- Jesus Christ.
You kneel to her when we are cautioned to kneel to none but Jesus Christ.
You believe she was without sin when we are told clearly in Scripture that there has been only one human being without sin -- Jesus Christ.
Rome can never justify Marionology in light of Scripture and Trinitarian Christianity.
He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
"And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say...Shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?"
Now do you have a scripture reference for that specific assertion. A simple yes or no will do. If yes, please cite the specific scriptural reference. If not, then just admit it and we can move on.
Faith is given by God and God grows this faith as He sees fit. With free will, God uses our choices to make us (Christians) better people. For us to think that if we "freely" follow God's will that He will reward us for being "good people" by increasing our faith underscores a common misunderstanding of our depraved nature. We are dependent on Him daily for everything. Faith is given to us and is maintained in us by God as a gift; not because we do a whole lot of good things for Him.
My analysis of Luke 17 of the unworthy servants is precisely correct. We are unworthy servants. There is nothing that is due us since it all comes from God. As the blessed Cyprian stated,
"that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own." And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it?" [1 Cor. 4.7.] - St Cyprian
But this shows you do not understand "justification" either.
All men are fallen and we sin until we breath our last breathe. But by the grace of God, Christ has paid for every one of those sins which enables us to stand blameless and acquitted of our trespasses before God. As we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit we learn to loathe our sins; we are turned by the will of God from the darkness to the light, and we will sin less and less. But we will never be without sin because we are still creatures, still human, still dependent on Him alone.
Mary is the Mother of God
No, to believe that would be to believe something predated God Himself. Blasphemy.
Mary is the mother of the man, Jesus Christ. As has been asked repeatedly and correctly, is Mary the mother of the Godhead?
No.
When a Protestant sees a Catholic on his knees before a statue of Mary, we say a prayer for your salvation. It's no small thing "to fall down to the stock of a tree."
You read it, but you still don't seem to understand it.
" Believe me, it's enough of a blasphemy to say "Mary was sinless.""
"Blasphemy"? Oh, that's rich coming from a "protestant"!
"As Rome wants to be understood by Protestants, so, too, do Protestants want Rome to realize just how far we believe Marionology traipses into heresy."
Which Protestants, Dr.E? Arminians? Calvinists? various brands of Episcopalians? Anglo/Catholics? Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, Lutherans (ELCA, LCMS, LCWS) etc, etc? What do "Protestants" believe about Mary, Dr.E? Who in "Protestantism", in the "sola scriptura" world, determines what is and isn't heresy?
It is extremely hard for any of us in The Church to take anyone seriously when they say "Protestants believe...".
ID. Maria, in Hebrew, is the star of the sea; but in Syriac it is interpreted Mistress, and well, because Mary was thought worthy to be the mother of the Lord of the whole world, and the light of endless ages.
28. And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women. AMBROSE; Mark the virgin by her manner of life. Alone in an inner chamber, unseen by the eyes of men, discovered only by an angel; as it is said, And the angel came in to her. That she might not be dishonored by any ignoble address, she is saluted by an angel.
GREG. NYSS. Far different then to the news formerly addressed to the woman, is the announcement now made to the Virgin. In the former, the cause of sin was punished by the pains of childbirth; In the latter, through gladness, sorrow is driven away. Hence the angel not unaptly proclaims joy to the Virgin, saying, Hail.
GREEK EX. But that she was judged worthy of the nuptials is attested by his saying, Full of grace. For it is signified as a kind of token or marriage gift of the bridegroom, that she was fruitful in graces. For of the things which he mentions, the one appertains to the bride, the other to the bridegroom.
JEROME; And it is well said, Full of grace, for to others, grace comes in part; into Mary at once the fullness of grace wholly infused itself. She truly is full of grace through whom has been poured forth upon every creature the abundant rain of the Holy Spirit. But already He was with the Virgin Who sent the angel to the Virgin. The Lord preceded His messenger, for He could not be confined by place Who dwells in all places. Whence it follows, The Lord is with you.
AUG. More I than with me, for He Himself is in your heart, He is (made) in you womb, He fills your soul, He fills your womb.
GREEK EX. But this is the sum of the whole message. The Word of God, as the Bridegroom, effecting an incomprehensible union, Himself, as it were, the same both planting, and being planted, has molded the whole nature of man into Himself. But comes last the most perfect and comprehensive salutation; Blessed are you among women. i.e. Alone, far before all other women; that women also should be blessed in you, as men are in your Son; but rather both in both. For as by one man and one woman came at once both sin and sorrow, so now also by one woman and one man has both blessing and joy been restored, and poured forth upon all.
*Thus the Fathers of the Church.
Adam was "born" from an uncursed earth. Doesn't it resonate with Original Justice and pellucid prosaic perfection that Jesus would be, like the Second Adam He is described as, born from a sinless Virgin Mary?
"Mary is the Mother of God
No, to believe that would be to believe something predated God Himself. Blasphemy.
Mary is the mother of the man, Jesus Christ. As has been asked repeatedly and correctly, is Mary the mother of the Godhead?'
This is the first piece of definitive, no question in my simple Orthodox mind, heresy I've seen you post, Dr.E. What part or parts of "Protestantism" share your at a minimum Nestorian and very likely Arian heretical theology? Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Unitarian?
"Full of Grace" which is just another way of saying "empty of sin"
No. It is a leap of heretical proportions.
Was Mary the mother of the Godhead?
I'm not surprised you don't recognize real heresy when you see it.
Was Mary the mother of the Godhead?
Your sole defense is "I don't understand scripture."
Frankly, Monty Python's "Argument" skit is better :)
No, it's not. I am "full of turkey" after Christmas dinner. But I still have room for apple pie.
All true believers in Jesus Christ are "full of grace."
And yet we still sin because we are human and not God.
Solomon had Adonijah put to death because of his deceit and his mother's action. I don't know if this is such a great example to be used for having a mother partition on your behalf.
Here's another one for you:
"After the assent of the holy Virgin, the Holy Spirit descended on her, according to the word of the Lord which the angel spoke, purifying her, and granting her power to receive the divinity of the Word, and likewise power to bring forth. And then was she overshadowed by the enhypostatic Wisdom and Power of the most high God, the Son of God Who is of like essence with the Father as of Divine seed, and from her holy and most pure blood He formed flesh animated with the spirit of reason and thought, the first-fruits of our compound nature: not by procreation but by creation through the Holy Spirit: not developing the fashion of the body by gradual additions but perfecting it at once, He Himself, the very Word of God, standing to the flesh in the relation of subsistence. For the divine Word was not made one with flesh that had an independent pre-existence, but taking up His abode in the womb of the holy Virgin, He unreservedly in His own subsistence took upon Himself through the pure blood of the eternal Virgin a body of flesh animated with the spirit of reason and thought, thus assuming to Himself the first-fruits of man's compound nature, Himself, the Word, having become a subsistence in the flesh. So that He is at once flesh, and at the same time flesh of God the Word, and likewise flesh animated, possessing both reason and thought. Wherefore we speak not of man as having become God, but of God as having become Man. For being by nature perfect God, He naturally became likewise perfect Man: and did not change His nature nor make the dispensation an empty show, but became, without confusion or change or division, one in subsistence with the flesh, which was conceived of the holy Virgin, and animated with reason and thought, and had found existence in Him, while He did not change the nature of His divinity into the essence of flesh, nor the essence of flesh into the nature of His divinity, and did not make one compound nature out of His divine nature and the human nature He had assumed." St. John Damascene
I think Alice fed me a litle pill and I just awakened in the chaos preceeding the Council of Ephesus :)
"Was Mary the mother of the Godhead?"
You're coming a little late to that discussion, Dr.E, about 2500 posts too late. Frankly, to anyone with even a simple grasp of Trinitarian theology, the question is silly.The simple answer is NO. The Theotokos gave birth to the enhypostatically conceived Incarnate Word. You really should have read +Athanasius on the Incarnation at the link I posted. But if not him, then try any one of the Cappadocian Fathers or even +Gregory Palamas. For that matter, read Luther.
"I think Alice fed me a litle pill and I just awakened in the chaos preceeding the Council of Ephesus :)"
The old heresies have never really died because the Evil One still lurks about. Believing that "once saved always saved" as anything approaching a condition in this life would make one an easy mark for him and his demons. I must say, however, that our good brethren among the LCMS and LCWS as well as any number of Methodists and Anglicans might take great umbrage at being lumped in with such heresy.
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