Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Well apparently some on this thread believe that He doesn't, or want to define "church" as something other than what Scripture defines it as.
You already have many arguements with Him. Why would you seek another one?
Show me in Scripture where He did so. Jesus and I have no arguments.
Yeah, you do. You think He spoke symbolically about His Body and Blood, and you argue with Him about who He built His Church upon...
Scripture, Tradition, and Church teaches Mary is Queen of Heaven...
Your arguement is with Jesus, not me.
And I have given-up on you.
Jesus hasn't.
You better keep your ears open :)
I don't argue with him about anything. You are mistaken.
Scripture where????
2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.
James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.
1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.
Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.
Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.
Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory
Welcome to Scripture Catholic is my source
Just a question.
Is this thread going to turn into another 15000 post monster like the Luther and Erasmus one? If so, can someone keep a scorecard so we don't keep wandering around in circles?
/joke. It is a Friday :)
Hint: There is only one mention of the Queen of Heaven in Scripture. Jeremiah 44. She is a false idol, and those who worship her by burning incense for her, pouring out drink offerings for her and making little cakes perished.
11Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.
12And I will take the remnant of Judah, that have set their faces to go into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, and they shall all be consumed, and fall in the land of Egypt; they shall even be consumed by the sword and by the famine: they shall die, from the least even unto the greatest, by the sword and by the famine: and they shall be an execration, and an astonishment, and a curse, and a reproach.
13For I will punish them that dwell in the land of Egypt, as I have punished Jerusalem, by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence:
14So that none of the remnant of Judah, which are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall escape or remain, that they should return into the land of Judah, to the which they have a desire to return to dwell there: for none shall return but such as shall escape.
15Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,
16As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.
17But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
18But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
19And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
20Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
21The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
22So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
23Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.
24Moreover Jeremiah said unto all the people, and to all the women, Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah that are in the land of Egypt:
25Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
26Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
27Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
28Yet a small number that escape the sword shall return out of the land of Egypt into the land of Judah, and all the remnant of Judah, that are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall know whose words shall stand, mine, or their's.
29And this shall be a sign unto you, saith the LORD, that I will punish you in this place, that ye may know that my words shall surely stand against you for evil:
30Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give Pharaohhophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, his enemy, and that sought his life.
Uh. None of those scriptures mention Mary.
The woman in Rev 12 isn't even Mary. It is Israel. The 12 stars are the twelve tribes. Israel is the focus of the Tribulation. Mary is not the woman. Rather, Israel brought forth the man-child and was persecuted by Satan.
We Catholics never claim our beliefs are discovered by ourselves in Scripture. We are just learnt what is true and not and we believe it.
We are just children, really
Noisy children, unruly, poorly behaved, yes. But, children...For Catholics, Mom is always right
Good Bye.
And you ignored all the other quotes...
as usual....
On the contrary! There's plenty of evidence they did and none that they didn't. Although the strength of that evidence doesn't allow for a firm conclusion, it is stronger than no evidence at all, which is what the perpetual virgin claim has to support it.
I ignorred nothing. I know Scripture. Those quotes were not Scriptural. The first part was. The last part was a Catholic add-on. Mary is NOT MENTIONED.
Are you going to stick your tongue out at me now because you say that the Church says it is Mary.
John was an Apostle. Not a Catholic. Catholic means universal. All believers are part of the universal church of Christ. All believers are not part of the Roman institution.
I appreciate you expressing agreement, but…
Your reply illustrated what I was trying to say. I guess the simplest way to communicate what I mean is to post from both:
…there are only two views from which to view God; synergism and monergism.
"And it made me see my many years in Protestantism, in different Churches, as taking off on one aspect and expanding it… "worship isn't found in man made structures, candles and incense, and rituals.
"…and a driving motive in each a striving toward minimalism. "What is the least..."Among God's attributes are Truth, Goodness and Beauty. Beauty is of God, from God. Closing the windows of our senses to the Divine is not a necessary or effective spiritual practice.
"It seemed there was a vast richness and fullness, a depth and a fitting together of all things in Catholicism."Thanks again for your reply...
LOL! The same could be said for the Catholic and Orthodox crowd here! We Lutherans do, but we don't talk about it (inside joke).
Regards
On the contrary! There's plenty of evidence they did and none that they didn't. Although the strength of that evidence doesn't allow for a firm conclusion, it is stronger than no evidence at all, which is what the perpetual virgin claim has to support it.
Where is there any evidence that Mary had other children? NOWHERE are the "brothers of Jesus" mentioned as Mary's children. The language used does not clarify between cousins and blood brothers.
And it would seem strange that Jude would call himself a brother of James, who supposedly is a blood brother of Jesus according to you, but NOT a brother of Jesus...Your logic would make Jude and Jesus as blood brothers - yet, Jude never mentions such a relationship. Only with James. Think about it for a second. "Brother" has different meanings.
Regards Regards
No. They had no relationship UNTIL Jesus was born. And Jesus was Mary's FIRSTBORN Son. Is it that hard to follow?
Mary had several children. One was a child by God. The others were by Joseph.
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