Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
because the inward conversion of the heart ought to bring forth fruits in the life, repentance cannot be rightly taught unless works be required, not those frivolous works which are only in estimation amongst the Papists, but such as are sound testimonies of innocence and holiness.
The whole section preceding this is a regular old commentary on Acts 2:38. There is nothing wrong with it. Then, all of a sudden, "not those frivolous works ...". So Papists do frivolous works and Calvinists do real works? What does it have to do with anything?
Like a magician distracts you by some song and dance, before he pulls the pigeon out of his sleeve, so does Calvin begin every paragraph with an unobjectionable gospel commentary, then sneaks in some anti-Catholic invective that he did not support by any gospel. Here is one more:
Moreover, the Papists do so corrupt this other part of the gospel, that they quite exclude the remission of sins, which was to be obtained by Christ. They confess their sins are freely forgiven in baptism, but they will have them redeemed with satisfactions after baptism;Acts 2:38 says that? 2 Corinthians 5:20 says that? Of course not. Calvin says that. The preceding stuff was camouflage.
The scripture is filled with exhortations for virtue and continual repentance. Peter repents. Seven times were are to repent: "if he sin against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day be converted unto thee, saying, I repent; forgive him" (Luke 17:4). ow can one teach against the sacrament of penance (confession) and not mention the fact that is it authorized in the Gospel as a repetitive sacrament (James 5:16, 1 John 1:9, John 20:23, Matthew 6:12), in addition to baptism?
The church receives the Holy Spirit; it does not dispense the Holy Spirit.
Where does this follow from? Apostles baptized. The Church baptizes. Your church probably baptizes too, a Catholic baptism, I am sure -- there is no other. Baptism is what makes one Christian. The gift of the Holy Ghost is attached to baptism. Calvin does not dispute that. Is it your contention that the Church receives the Holy Spirt but does not give it to anyone? It would not be Church then.
Thank you, Alamo-Girl. I’ve found and I’m finding that if I do it God’s Way it can look like failure for a bit, but it isn’t, not ever. His the Power of the Resurrection and the Life, proven forever in Christ Jesus my Lord, amen - all this through the torture of the selfless life, the cross, the 3-day grave. I thank Him for you.
I'll drag 'em all down to hell and I'll stand 'em at the wall,
I'll sell 'em to their enemies.
~Workingman's Blues #2
Y'all keep up the good work, and God bless.
See, now that's just plain talking wisdom right there. Thanks.
So Papists do frivolous works and Calvinists do real works? What does it have to do with anything?
No, Papists believe their good works can earn them salvation, while Protestants know that good works are the result of the Holy Spirit opening our hearts to God because of Christ's atonement alone.
"They (RCC) confess their sins are freely forgiven in baptism, but they will have them redeemed with satisfactions after baptism;"
Calvin here refers to the fact that the RCC teaches you must be forgiven over and over and over again through confession and priestly absolution and further good works, when in fact God's children were forgiven every sin once for all time by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who redeemed His flock in full.
The gift of the Holy Ghost is attached to baptism. Calvin does not dispute that.
Calvin would not put the Holy Spirit in second place to baptism as he carefully explained in the Commentary I gave. Baptism flows from the Holy Spirit and is accomplished by the will of God, not the will of the church.
Is it your contention that the Church receives the Holy Spirit but does not give it to anyone?
Believers receive the Holy Spirit. Believers make up a congregation. The Holy Spirit speaks to and regenerates the individual heart of each believer. The congregation and the groups of congregations making up the church exist to preach the Good News of the Gospel and to enjoy glorying God in unison.
The church exists by the will of God, led by the Holy Spirit, to serve Jesus Christ. Not vice versa.
Everything, absolutely everything, is subordinate to Jesus Christ.
1. The catholic or universal church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. 2. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation. 3. Unto this catholic visible church Christ hath given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and doth, by his own presence and Spirit, according to his promise, make them effectual thereunto. 4. This catholic church hath been sometimes more, sometimes less visible. And particular churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them. 5. The purest churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a church on earth, to worship God according to his will. 6. There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof."
OF THE CHURCH
His mother was part Irish (and proud of it), her dad had come over from Ireland as a boy and ran away from his adoptive family to join Sherman's Civil War march at 12 years old, a drummer boy. This dear lady was so in Christ that every Saint Patrick's Day (which was her birthday as well) she would make a paper chain, like one does at Christmas for the tree - only this one was made of orange and green hoops, for peace in her Homeland and among her brethren. I just love that.
“American Orthodoxy, for reasons too complex to enter into right now, will not last very long before it becomes its own brand of Protestant error. The “Orthodox” Study Bible will become their Bible, no doubt.”
I guess I have a bit more confidence in the future than you do, Kosta. But I will grant that the main reason the GOA is still an eparchy of Constantinople is the fear of precisely that. American Orthodoxy isn’t nearly mature enough to go it alone. Interestingly, its mostly clerics and some “cradle” Orthodox who seem to favor autocephally. Lay converts seem death on the idea as do most lay cradle Orthodox.
Thank you.
Ranting? You call showing you that Matthew says not all who call on Lord's name shall be saved, and Paul and Luke and Joel say just the opposite, ranting?
Please, show me why is Mat 7:21-23 "true" and Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32 are not. If I rant, it's because everyone is pretending the emperor has clothes when he is buck naked. Wake up people!
However it should be noted that Jesus Christ certainly is within His authority as God to use the word “fool” without the penalty He speaks in Matt 5.
Matthew also says that whosever calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire. When I show you that so many authors, especially Paul, call other people fools or foolish, you are dismissive.
This is not an issue whether Jesus is "within His authority" (or some other nonsense like that) to call anyone a fool. Of course it's "within His authority!" but He wouldn't because He would have to call everyone a fool! Yet, Paul, on the other hand, finds it easy to call some fools and some saints, insisting that some are better than others. That should tell you everything about that man and "his" gosepl, as he calls it (that is, the one he invented).
Easy answer.. context and spirit.. Mouthing the name of the lord is NOT calling on the name of the lord.. You can actually call out to God and not even use his name.. Its a spiritual thing.. In the spirit/Spirit, language is Not really needed.. deep can call out to deep..
As any that know the Lord but are deaf and/or dumb knows intimately..
Probably because many FOOLS are just telling you what you need to hear but are too arrogant to see.. Happens to all of us at sometime..
It's not a matter of maturity; it's a matter of culture, Kolo. remember, in Greece, people "walk" Orthodox. In Orthodox countries, Orthodoxy is a way of life (i.e. culture). is Orthodox.
In America, Orthodoxy is an unnatural graft: an Orthodox vine attached to a Protestant-secular way of life and a culture that is as far removed form Orthodoxy as one can imagine. Orthodoxy is a freak looked at from a normal American point of view.
It's a matter of perception. They walk in our churches, snell and see incense, candles, unintelligible chanting, bowing, crossing, talking to and kissing these pictures of people who look like something from Hindu paintings, and they think they are in some kind of an occult wiccan worship.
I had an LDS tell me that it was "morbid." He recalls people carrying a coffin around the church (Pascha, of course), and prostrating before it.
That reminded me of someone once telling me that if martians walked into a church they would report to their bosses back home that earthlings worship some dead guy, and engage in cannibalism, because they eat and drink blood. Distorited perceptions are powerful determinants of attitude.
How can an Orthodox American go out on a Friday night and have a drink and hot wings with a bunch of guys when he is supposed to be fasting? Oh, yeah, that, fasting...Happy hours are on Wednesdays...but we are supposed to be fasting then too.
We fast half of the year all in all in a country where fasting is unheard of. We fast either at Christmas (old calendar churches) or Thanksgiving (new calendar churches), two biggest food feast holidays; take your pick. And if you are Irish and Orthodox (and I know you are half and half) do you go out on St. Patrick's and have a tall glass of ale in the middle of Great Lent (you don't have to answer that of course)?
Being an American and being Orthodox is a clash of cultures and civilizations. American Orthodox are trying hard to be both Orthodox and American. The two concepts are incompatible. Something's got to give. And it won't be the culture. Only about 1% of Americans are Orthodox and that includes ethnics and Americans. Do you really believe one can live Orthodoxy in a Protestant-secular world we live in unless he or she is ethnically immunized?
American Orthodoxy will seek that which will feel less "freakish" and in doing so will mutate from Orthodoxy and turn into something unrecognizable. The "Orthodox" Study Bible is only a symptom of that trend.
I don't see any 'mouthing' in what these verses say: they say the same thing, but with opposite ending.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Mat 7:21-23)
"Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13) and "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered." (Joel 2:32)
In the spirit/Spirit, language is Not really needed.. deep can call out to deep
Yup, you're right, it's deep alright.
Or maybe I am surrounded by such arrogant fools that I would be foolish to follow them.
“Do you really believe one can live Orthodoxy in a Protestant-secular world we live in unless he or she is ethnically immunized?”
Some years ago I’d have said no. But after years in a parish with convert families, I’ve seen people begin to “walk Orthodox”. She Who Must Be Obeyed” and I were out with such a couple just last Saturday evening. It takes years, though, Kosta. My wife says at least 10 years but that’s not bad. It takes 10 years out of law school to even begin to think of one’s self as an attorney. But the kids of the converts...they’re the ones, Kosta. They are just like we were, except they know their faith better than we did.
It is hard to be Orthodox in America, so hard that many ethnic Orthodox here are nominal at best, and their kids are worse. But the convert kids, they’re really something!
As for the ale on +Patrick’s Day, no I didn’t. But had I wanted to I would have. The Latin hierarch who has jurisdiction over the March feast day gave everyone a pass! :)
The Study Bible is another matter altogether. Its the product of the same mentality which lead Greek priests here not so many years ago to dress like Episcopal vicars. Our generation, and even more so the one before it, wanted to be fully American and while that was and is laudable, they never understood that they could be good Americans and faithful, traditional Orthodox too.
I said you but I didn't mean "YOU" personally...
Like I've been saying.. big difference between Logos and Rhema..
Well, Kolo, whether you are right (I hope) or wrong, you made me feel better. :)
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