'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[Alamo-Girl]

Ordinarily, the Holy Ghost is received from the Church.

If the Church believes this, and teaches it, then the contention against Catholicism cannot end.

The Holy Spirit is God. The Church is not God. No thing controls God - God has no "boundaries."

[kosta50]

Satan is as completely subject to the Will of God as any other creature. Period. Because he knows that, he already knows his bid to destroy God's beloved is already doomed; he knows his time is growing short...The mystery is that the satan performs a role in God's providential economy, in His Plan for the resurrection of man and creation at the End of Days

I disagree. Christianity does not consider Satan a necessary "soteriological" factor, let alone part of the divine Economy of our salvation! Nor do we consider Satan to be God's obedient servant! In Chrisitanity, Satan is a fallen angel who rebelled (and rebells) against God.

Satan is as completely subject to the Will of God as any other creature. Period

Being subject to the will of God doesn't mean God is willing to stop evil.

[kosta50]

I agree with most of your post, hospepie, except the part that God “tests us.” God only sends us blessings. The rest is our doing...

[kosta50]

hospepie=hosepipe, sorry.

[Alamo-Girl]

Again, excellent Scripture! Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

[Quix]

That is a conjecture, Quix. No doubt, people have and will continune to read into it.

As folks with your perspective have obviously done.

[Quix]

Edgy isn’t the word for it.

But it’s not as though this is new. Seems to go with the edifice itself.

But much more of such edginess and everyone will be bleeding to death from paper cuts.

[hosepipe]

[.. If the Church believes this, and teaches it, then the contention against Catholicism cannot end. The Holy Spirit is God. The Church is not God. No thing controls God - God has no "boundaries." ..]

Reverencing or worshiping the church is and would be gross "idolotry".. could be called spiritual mirror gazing.. or worse..

[Alamo-Girl]

it takes a gemologist to be a christian observer

LOLOL! It certain helps, dear brother in Christ!

As Dr. Eckleburg points out, it is very difficult to come up with the proper words to explain such concepts.

I went with no delineation (as in "no bright line") and yet a difference - and returned to "facet" as I recall, in the same post. LOL!

The "facet" term has been fairly successful in explaining how all of us can be looking at the same diamond and the same Light and yet see slightly different things depending on which facet we are facing.

But language fails...

[Quix]

Ordinarily, the Holy Ghost is received from the Church.

If the Church believes this, and teaches it, then the contention against Catholicism cannot end.

The Holy Spirit is God. The Church is not God. No thing controls God - God has no "boundaries."

Said much more beautifully, simply and briefly than I, for sure. But sure my convictions on it.

ALLLLLLL Christian congregations are an affront in some way or another to the PURE UNADULTERATED BIBLICAL GOSPEL OF JESUS THE CHRIST--to some greater or lesser degree. There is none, good, no, not one, Scripture says of individuals. How can motley collections of individuals be any different!

Alas, some congregations and even denominations for historical as well as political and sociological as well as trumped up theological reasons seem to make it a raison d'etra to follow the pharisees of 2,000 years ago in throwing sand in God's eyes; straining at gnats and swallowing camels; majoring in minors and minoring in majors; ignoring the spirit of the law while ranting over the tiniest letters . . . etc. etc. etc.

Christ sliced through it all as the most recent ONE ANOTHER articulates: love fulfills the law. But that's too hard. OUR congregation's distinctives are MOST HIGH MOST HOLY and we can't stoop to that common love stuff. Besides, it's tooooooo hard.

Sigh.

[Quix]

“tests us.” God only sends us blessings. The rest is our doing...
= = =

Not according to Scripture.

But I’m not going to look it up tonight.

[kosta50]

FWIW, it was quickly pointed out that because that is not official doctrine, or dogma (I can never keep track of the difference) this obvious inconsistency doesn't matter. I'm sure all you lawyers understand these fine points of distinction. I'm just part of that "old school" that expects consistency

Dogma is essential to Christianity. Trinitarian nature of God is a dogma. Dual nature in one Person is a Christiological dogma. Christ's resurrection is a dogma. It is required of a Christian to believe that.

Doctrine is what the Church teaches. It is based on Scripture, record of worship (liturgy) and teachings of individual Fathers. It represents what the Church considers to be the truth. Doctrines change. Dogmas don't.

Thus, in the 14th century the Eastern Orthodox Church adopted monastic hesychastic teachings (of Cappadician and Desert Fathers), rather than westsern scholasticism, as "official doctrine" of the Church.

There are beliefs that are expressed as hypotheses (theologoumenna) by individual Father and laity. They are neither doctrine nor dogma unless the Church receives thgem as such, or proclaims them at an Ecumenical Council as essential elements of Christianity.

Mary's painless birth is a theologoumennon (hypothesis) of some. This is no different that a Portestant (say a Prebyterian or a Baptist for example) agreeing with some of Luther's teachings but not all of them. Agreement or disagreement does not constitute apostasy or heresy.

[hosepipe]

[..I agree with most of your post, hosepipe, except the part that God “tests us.” ]

Human life is a Maze.. a test.. Failure is Draconian, success is Utopian..
Could even be a contest.. or better a qualification for some future Universal Authority over a "few or many things".. I like qualification better.. but test works.. Jesus implied many of these things.. If his metaphors can be decrypted its not a secret....

[kosta50]

As folks with your perspective have obviously done

No, I read it straight and narrow. :)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply and I'm glad you found the linked article to be helpful!

Our difference over Eze 28 is not a problem to me. We sometimes will look at the same passage, and spiritually hear different things.

[Alamo-Girl]

The Bible implies that Jesus did not have the Spirit until baptism and then it says that Jesus had to have Spirit guide Him. As God, he was never without the Father and without the Spirit, for they are One. The Bible doesn't treat them as such.

I disagree:

Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not [of it].

But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among [their] kinsfolk and acquaintance. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. – Luke 2:41-50

[Alamo-Girl]

To the contrary:

Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. – Jude 1:8-11

[Alamo-Girl]

Reverencing or worshiping the church is and would be gross "idolotry"..

SO very true, dear brother in Christ. Strangely we were discussing the nature of idolatry on another thread just today.

Truly, valuing any thing or any one above God is idolatry.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your testimony and insights - and for your encouragements!

ALLLLLLL Christian congregations are an affront in some way or another to the PURE UNADULTERATED BIBLICAL GOSPEL OF JESUS THE CHRIST--to some greater or lesser degree. There is none, good, no, not one, Scripture says of individuals. How can motley collections of individuals be any different!

Truly, as hosepipe is wont to say, Christ came to establish a family, not a religion.

[Alamo-Girl]

Human life is a Maze.. a test.. Failure is Draconian, success is Utopian.. Could even be a contest.. or better a qualification for some future Universal Authority over a "few or many things".. I like qualification better.. but test works.. Jesus implied many of these things.. If his metaphors can be decrypted its not a secret....

The parable of the talents comes to mind...