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PREDESTINATION; LIVE BY GRACE; NOT BY WORKS (WEEK 8)
St. Louis Center for Christian Study ^ | Greg Johnson

Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg

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1 posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:11 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

Last part of the series, Saints. A day late, but not a cent too short. 8~)


2 posted on 11/13/2006 11:04:25 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks!

Great news to read in the morning. Now where is the coffee and donuts...?

(c;


3 posted on 11/14/2006 4:32:01 AM PST by Ottofire (Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out!"
_____________________________

Amen!

It sure is a shortcoming I have.
4 posted on 11/14/2006 5:09:55 AM PST by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
(if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!

Greg Johnson does not realize that there is a major problem in his theology here. No believer can know that he or she is one of the elect until death. Greg keeps telling people that they are elect, but Greg has no way of knowing who is elect and who is not.

-A8

5 posted on 11/14/2006 5:15:53 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy.

Given the doctrine of limited atonement, and the fact of apostasy (those who seem to have saving faith but actually did not), what are the grounds of this confidence?

-A8

6 posted on 11/14/2006 5:19:15 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love --

Given the doctrines of reprobation, limited atonement, and apostasy, no one can know, in this life, whether one is joined to God's love in the first place.

-A8

7 posted on 11/14/2006 5:21:12 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister

Or, for all you know, proud to have created you to roast in hell forever.

-A8

8 posted on 11/14/2006 5:25:10 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Behavior has consequences!


9 posted on 11/14/2006 5:30:37 AM PST by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.

I couldn't agree more with this; especially the legalism part. I've also come to realize that assurance of salvation may not be quite the same thing as knowledge of salvation, and because of that there will be some of us who were assured (and I think I can say that I feel assured of God's Love for me, and that his Love will bring me home, when he calls me home) but wrongly so, because that requires a knowledge that only God has.

It's cognitive dissonance to say that salvation is of God, and then on the other hand command or suggest or imply, that I must say so many Hail Marys for my sins (and how did prayer become penance?), that I remember under penalty of grave sin that Holy Days of Obligation, are just that, an obligation. Not Love of God, but obligation. Just about everything Rome touches it tyrannizes; it's something deep in their marrow or it's driven by industry and money. I'm not really sure which, and if I had to guess, I'd say it's a little bit of both. It makes God the ultimate petty task master.

Right after I left Rome, I was going to give away my missal and catechism, both of which date back many years. What kept me from doing it, and I'm glad it did, because there's a good share in each that is profoundly worthy, is that I had this dream that I was dropping them off in the vestibule, and the doors shut in on me and I couldn't get out.

You might be interested to know that my missal refers a few times to 'Thine Elect.' The missal dates back to '62 and the catechism to '52. I acquired them when I returned after a couple of decades of thinking, something's off here, this may not be for me. And, what was always off, was the inveterate legalism that turns love into an obligation. And rendered the church itself incapable of loving, so that a pope could declare that one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Now all these years later, some ministry of nuance, tries to massage that message into something that can only be accepted by those bound and gagged by Rome's magisterium. Anyone outside that circle sees the spin for what it is. If Unam Sanctum (I hope I have the right Bull) can be re-cast, there's nothing in their arsenal that can't be recast. They give Pilates words, 'what is truth?', saliency again and again and again.

It is all of God, it is none of me. My being moves in His, that makes me calm and serene and joyful

10 posted on 11/14/2006 6:58:34 AM PST by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl; Dr. Eckleburg
Pilates should be Pilate's. Wouldn't want to confuse the guy who washed his hands and sealed his fate, with the abdominal core exercise guru.
11 posted on 11/14/2006 7:06:29 AM PST by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl

Amen, AG.

Post Tenebras Lux


12 posted on 11/14/2006 9:14:24 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: adiaireton8; AlbionGirl; Ottofire; wmfights
Hi, A8. Thanks for your four posts out of the 11 given on this thread. I'm pleased you're spending so much time reading Reformed doctrine.

no one can know, in this life, whether one is joined to God's love in the first place.

Well, we Reformers stand with Paul when he declares "for I know whom I have believed" (2 Timothy 1:12.)

Since you seem interested, please read the following excellent link by Loraine Boettner...

THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

"...Those who have fled to Jesus for refuge have a firm foundation upon which to build. Though floods of error deluge the land, though Satan raise all the powers of earth and all the iniquities of their own hearts against them, they shall never fail; but, persevering to the end, they shall inherit those mansions which have been prepared for them from the foundation of the world. The saints in heaven are happier but no more secure than are true believers here in this world. Since faith and repentance are gifts of God, the bestowing of these gifts is a revelation of God's purpose to save those to whom they are given. It is an evidence that God has predestinated the recipients of these gifts to be conformed to the image of His Son, i.e., to be like Him in character, destiny, and glory, and that He will infallibly carry out His purpose. No one can pluck them out of His hands. Those who once become true Christians have within themselves the principle of eternal life, which principle is the Holy Spirit; and since the Holy Spirit dwells within them they are already potentially holy. True, they are still exercised by many trials, and they do not yet see what they shall be, but they should know that that which is begun in them shall be completed to the end, and that the very presence of strife within them is the sign of life and the promise of victory..."

13 posted on 11/14/2006 9:41:02 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Well, we Reformers stand with Paul when he declares "for I know whom I have believed" (2 Timothy 1:12.)

Knowing whom you have believed is not the same as knowing that you are elect. Even those who will eventually fall away know whom they have believed. Is that the best you can do??

-A8

14 posted on 11/14/2006 11:04:58 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It is almost as if you are in complete denial. One of Greg Johnson's classmates at the seminary from which Greg graduated, is now an atheist, though he was a devout believer, indistinguishable from his classmates while at seminary. His myspace page is here.

While in seminary Greg would have told him the same thing you quote from Boettner, "Since faith and repentance are gifts of God, the bestowing of these gifts is a revelation of God's purpose to save those to whom they are given. It is an evidence that God has predestinated the recipients of these gifts to be conformed to the image of His Son, i.e., to be like Him in character, destiny, and glory, and that He will infallibly carry out His purpose."

The imaginary world in which everyone who shows "faith and repentance" remains a believer until death is just that, imaginary. Reformed folk who claim otherwise are just deceiving themselves. It is if you are completely unaware (or in complete denial) about the *fact* of people who show "faith and repentance", and then go on to become God-hating atheists.

-A8

15 posted on 11/14/2006 12:11:44 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8; AlbionGirl; wmfights; Ottofire; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan; Gamecock
Knowing whom you have believed is not the same as knowing that you are elect. Even those who will eventually fall away know whom they have believed

Respectfully, you are wrong. To truly know Christ is to be of Christ, to have been born of God.

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him...

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." -- 1 John 5:1,4

What man would deny Christ if he believed Him to be God? Those who fall away do not believe in the Trinity or in His divinity. Ask them. I have yet to find a non-believer who accepts the resurrection as fact. They have not been given eyes to see or ears to hear or a new heart with which to understand and believe.

Is that the best you can do??

To rest secure in His words that those who are His will believe in His name and follow Him and never be lost? Yes, that works for me.

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:35-40

"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." -- Isaiah 46:4

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

So relax, A8. God wants you confident that Christ has overcome the world. All the legalism of men does not benefit you one iota. Christ has redeemed you. No church nor magisterium nor men in robes can erase what God has given.

(All this is assuming, of course, you believe in the Trinitarian God of all creation and in Jesus Christ's perfect and complete atonement on the cross for every sin you have ever or will ever commit.)

If not, I guess you'll continue to worry and try to find something better.

16 posted on 11/14/2006 1:54:53 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
" I have yet to find a non-believer who accepts the resurrection as fact."
____________________________

So true Jesus was either a lunatic who died on the cross, or he was who he said he was, the son of God.
17 posted on 11/14/2006 3:10:54 PM PST by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
To truly know Christ is to be of Christ, to have been born of God.

Reformed folks never tire of this equivocation.

Q. How do you know that you are elect?

A. Because we know Christ.

Q. But others who seemed just like yourselves to know Christ, fell away.

A. Right, but they did not really *know* Christ.

Q. So how do you know that your "really *know*" Christ?

A. Because we have "faith and repentance".

Q. But those who fell away sure seemed to have "faith and repentance".

A. Right, but they did not *really* have "faith and repentance".

Q. Ok, so how you know that you *really* have "faith and repentance"?

A. Because "To truly know Christ is to be of Christ".

So when you when you want to assure yourselves that you are elect, you apply all these verses to yourselves. But then when people fall away, these same verses by which you assured the apostates-to-be that they were elect, you then say that these verses didn't ever apply to the apostates. But then you always ignore the fact that this admission undermines your justification for presently using these verses to assure yourselves that you are not an apostate-to-be.

-A8

18 posted on 11/14/2006 8:06:53 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; adiaireton8; wmfights
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

A great series, Dr. E. ! Thanks for posting. :)

There are tons of "assurance" verses in the Bible (the above being among my favorites). I can understand why a Catholic may have no assurance, (A8, I don't know if you are Catholic or not), because all of the assurance verses have been interpreted away by the hierarchy and salvation is partially dependent on the Church itself. But for anyone else, I don't understand how it profits a person to toss the assurance verses in favor of doubt and uncertainty. It would make sense if one admitted to believing in a works-based salvation, but even the Catholics deny that. I don't understand how a Christian life on earth is enhanced by questioning whether God really meant what He said in the Bible over and over and over again.

19 posted on 11/14/2006 8:23:41 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
How do you know that the "assurance verses" apply to you?

-A8

20 posted on 11/14/2006 8:50:30 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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