Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[DungeonMaster]

I had a really big list quite a few years ago but I don't know where it is.

[adiaireton8]

According to the scripture, when we enter Heaven we are glorified.

There is an ambiguity in this phrase. It can mean either "when we enter Heaven we are (already) glorified" or "when we enter Heaven (no matter how sinful we are when we enter), we are at that moment and not before then, automatically glorified".

Catholicism teaches the former but rejects the latter.

-A8

[1000 silverlings]

Then how do you explain Stephen’s testimony when he was filled with the Holy Spirit? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. – Acts 7:51

Well the Jewish people were never indwelt by the Spirit. At Sinai for example, He rested upon them so that they could understand and receive the Law. Then He departed. Other instances in the OT speak of much the same thing, Numbers 11:24-29.

What Stephen is referencing is their continual rejection, even killing, of their prophets, and Jesus, and the Word of God in which all of the prophets spoke of Christ. Here again, they are rejecting the Truth that the HS is pointing them to.

[adiaireton8]

But yet you guys and your church constantly quote scripture like you believe it...

We do believe it.

-A8

[1000 silverlings]

More importantly, how do you explain Jesus' words: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. – John 12:47-48

Jesus is referring to the OT

Deut: 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

[adiaireton8]

We're talking about influencing the souls of sinners and I believe your church's teaching will lead folks to Hell...

Which Catholic teachings "will lead folks to Hell"?

With your church relying on 'tradition', as the major factor in it's existance, that makes your pope a modern day prophet...

How does that conclusion follow? In other words, how does the Catholic Church's reliance on Apostolic Tradition make Pope Benedict a "modern day [false] prophet"? I don't see how that conclusion follows.

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

Is it possible to just simply say that the only things that we know for sure that are predestinated are the things that are prophesied by the Holy Scriptures, that not everything is predestinated, but if it is prophesied in the Scriptures, then it is predestinated from that point forward, and therefore will come to pass.

That is rational because the Scriptures include both prophesy and commandments. And adding to what God has said, or taking away from it, is not wise:

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. - Deu 12:32

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. - Rev 22:18-19

You continued:

In light of the above, I do not see my name prophesied in the Scriptures as destined for heaven, therefore how can I be predestinated to go there?

That is deduced from the declaration in Scripture that your name is recorded in the book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8, 17:8)

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. - Hebrews 4:1-3

This requires Spiritual discernment. Both are true, predestination and free will.

Geometric physics can help Christians understand time - because time is only a line to an observer from his own space/time coordinates in a four dimensional universe (3 of space, 1 of time.) See special and general relativity for more on this. And add one temporal dimension, and time is a plane, not a line. (Vafa, Wesson et al)

[adiaireton8]

And you don't follow the bible anyway...

We don't follow [heretical interpretations of the] Bible. That is true.

-A8

[1000 silverlings]

Objects connected with the breastplate of the high priest, and used as a kind of divine oracle…

Ezr 2:63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

Ne 7:65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim.

This breastplate had the 12 jewels representing the 12 tribes. It was a ceremonial garb and the priest wore it on special occasions. To this day, I think we have to admit that it is still unclear to us, all that it represented. However, as "a divine oracle" we have to understand that only one Spirit, God's Spirit was involved, as opposed to other oracles of the heathen who would have used their own imaginings in divination, or perhaps, did consult a spirit, but certainly not God's Spirit.

[adiaireton8]

Well, Protestants are Catholics that left the Catholic church for one reason or another...But as far as I can see, they're still Catholic...

How so?

But you didn't mention that Constantine basically joined your church with the Pagan worshippers of Diana when he took charge...

That is simply not true, and there is no evidence to support it.

.That's why you celebrate Jesus' birthday on the winter solstace, the worship of the Sun God...

Again, not true.

But the fact is, a lot of these groups survived the onslaught by Rome...And they grew and branched out...And they made copy after copy of the scriptures and passed than on, to be copied some more...

What is your evidence for this claim?

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Well said. Thank you for the post!

[Uncle Chip]

If you find it, see if you can start with the most persuasive scriptures first and no more than maybe 10 at a time at most. Maybe just start with the scriptures with the word "predestined" first, then "foreknow", "chosen [elect]", "ordained" as found in a concordance.

[adiaireton8]

These make up the majority of manuscripts that the King James bible was created from...Your church didn't invent, or create, or write the bible I use...There's no connection between my bible and your church...

This is simply false, as any Protestant scholar would acknolwedge.

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragements! But don't demean your own posts - they are a treasure to me.

[adiaireton8]

When was the wedding??? And the Marriage Supper of the Lamb???

It has not yet occurred.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

I would like to see more Christians on FreeRepublic preach Jesus and his gospel, instead of re-posting other people's scholarship and regurgitated, long-winded volumes on doctrines of secondary or no importance.

Christ and His Gospel is the only thing the Catholic Church teaches.

Others groups leave out much of Christ's Gospel, and/or add things to it.

-A8

[1000 silverlings]

Others groups leave out much of Christ's Gospel, and/or add things to it. -A8

Please provide examples and ping Silly and some of the rest of us when you see this happening, thanks

[adiaireton8]

Furthermore, the reliance on Tradition as a source coequal with Scripture was erroneous. Tradition is valuable, but it cannot replace the supremacy of Scripture.

Scripture never says that reliance on Apostolic Tradition as a source coequal with Scripture is erroneous. Nor does the Catholic Church teach that Apostolic Tradition should "replace the supremacy of Scripture". What the Apostles wrote down is equal in authority to what the Apostles spoke but did not write down (i.e. Apostolic Tradition). That is because the source of both is the very same (i.e. the Apostles).

-A8

[HarleyD]

Others groups leave out much of Christ's Gospel, and/or add things to it.

Like purgatory...praying to saints...limbo...indulgences...

[1000 silverlings]

Dancing the limbo is fun-- oh, not that limbo, sorry