Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[.30Carbine]

Hi, just wanted to note that I was quoting that particular line from Alamo-Girl! I know you had your hands full, Quix, and you have done a mighty job keeping this thread for Christ Jesus, King and Truth!

[.30Carbine]

Have always felt strongly about that Scripture [Matt. 23:9-10]. . . yet also . . . not always sure of the loving Biblical response in some family situations. And, as a college prof, what does a Believer say when someone calls me teacher. Professor doesn't technically fit the verse but does the intent of the verse, I think.

My solution has been to be as selfefacing as I can get away with and still carry fitting respect--and to discourage pedestal notions.

I think the verse AT LEAST speaks to the very human tendency to put leaders on pedestals. I think that tendency grows out of our inborn, created need to worship God. But when that inborn God-given tendency is misplaced, then all manner of evil results.

Here's a ping to my thoughts on teaching and teachers! Not surprisingly, they are much like your own posted here!

[DarthVader]

"I also think Pope Benedict XVI has a brilliant mind,an awesome holiness and true humility. Truly a follower and imitator of Christ."

I agree he is in the same mold as John Paul II.

[jude24]

The burden of proof is on the affirmative.

Under most circumstances. However, the burden of proof can and often does shift to the negative. For instance, the Catholics can point to fairly ancient traditions which allege that Peter died and was executed as Bishop in Rome. (The whole crucified upside-down story.) When you have ancient, reliable traditions, then the burden does indeed shift to the relative newbie (which all of us are) to demonstrate that those ancient, reliable traditions are indeed not ancient or are not reliable.

[.30Carbine]

You are most welcome!

[.30Carbine]

Thank you, A-G!

[wmfights]

"I've just been an observer,..."
_______________________________

If you have been an impartial observer, you would admit that UC and D have presented a very compelling argument that Peter was not in Rome as claimed. The response when confronted with this argument has been silence.

Instead of attacking the posters who presented this argument so well, why not support your argument that Peter was in Rome and was the founder and Bishop of that church?
Is it that you have no reliable information to draw on? If not why not present it?

[Uncle Chip]

WM, they abandoned me over here and left me in theological limbo, then started another thread on Peter and Rome. I trust you can find it and join us there. I don't know how to work the "link" part of the system yet, being so busy with our treatise, and searches and all.

Have you seen Adiaireton8 anywhere???? I am concerned for him. They might have consigned him to purgatory for his sin of not doing his part.

[wmfights]

"Though the Calvinist/Armenian threads can get pretty fierce against the Armenians, too."
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I know, both sides can get after it pretty good sometimes. I never see abuse complaints though. In my personal opinion it seems to be one sided and only serves to censor debate and discussion.

In response to this I've found that the best way for me to respond as soon as someone starts with the "I'm outraged" or "I'm offended" is to stop posting to that person, or thread. I'm sure that is part of what they want to accomplish (stifling debate), but I don't want to miss out on opportunities like this thread where a very interesting argument is being presented and the chance to learn something new is present.

[wmfights]

"WM, they abandoned me over here and left me in theological limbo, then started another thread on Peter and Rome."
_____________________

Thanks, I'll look for it.

It speaks volumes that they had to run away and try to re frame the discussion.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind and humbling words.

Heading off to pottery, I think. Plenty to do around here but all those bowls for the hospice sale need trimemed and I need to make 5-10 more.

There are plenty of things to respond to on the 2 threads but . . . enough for now. And, I think others can do better than I, anyway.

Have a blessed day Dear Sister and all.

LUB,

[Diego1618]

Have you seen Adiaireton8 anywhere???? I am concerned for him. They might have consigned him to purgatory for his sin of not doing his part.

Ya know....I'm really goin' to enjoy readin' your posts!

Welcome to Free Republic.

[wmfights]

I want to thank both of you for opening up a whole new area of study. It seems that just as I'm finishing up reading about one thing (currently the common meal tradition) I need to get a whole new set of books.

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome, dear sister in Christ!

[Uncle Chip]

Adiaireton8, Adiareton8, are you okay? Have they consigned you to that purgatorial dungeon until you can come up with the evidence that our great ecumenical thesis requires? Are you having trouble with your Part 2?

Well hang in there, buddy, because I am going to help you. I am going to do your part for you with the help of those left here in the land of the living threads and we will spring you from your purgatory as soon as possible. So keep the faith --- help is on the way. I am working on it right now.

[I hope they let you read this]

[Diego1618]

I want to thank both of you for opening up a whole new area of study.

You are giving me way too much credit for this. It's all in scripture, and you would have come up with the same argument.....given time.

[saradippity]

Perhaps you need to read this original thread and see for yourself just what persons took this thread in a direction that seems intended to confuse,conflate and muddle. Look at post #5 for an example of peremptory nonsense.

Very few of you (nonCatholics) have dealt with what Pope Benedict XVI said,instead you focus on what you all think about the whether or not Peter was in Rome,which in most Catholic and nonCatholic circles is not nor has ever been much in question. Read annalex's responses on that on the other thread.

[Uncle Chip]

Hey Guys! If I do Adiaireton8's work for him and complete his Part II]Evidence from the Writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers for that great ecumenical treatise below, will you let him out of his purgatorial dungeon? I changed the numbers "1 and 2" to Roman numerals "I and II". I thought it would go over better with the magisterium there.

Are there any other changes that I should make on our treatise thus far, and if so, please provide the citations so as to include them. If I have left out anything that can be remotely construed by the most rhetorical amongst as evidence, I will post it and I hope you will as well.

I will be down at the monastery later today in their inquisitional library where they torture all those writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers to get them to cough up everything they said and even lot of things that they didn't say. We will use every inquisitional device to find all that we need to complete Part II of the treatise.

As you can see, we tortured the writings of Clement of Rome and Justin Martur, but we could not break them. They would not tell us what we wanted to hear. Pray that we are more successful with the latter.

We are doing this for poor Adiaireton8 to spring him from his purgatorial dungeon. Please don't be mean to him, he tried. But where he failed, Uncle Chip will prevail on his behalf. Please help me.

Hang in there, Adiaireton8. Help is on the way. Keep the faith. And I hope they let you read this.

THE EVIDENCE for THE TWENTY-FIVE YEAR BISHOPRIC of SAINT PETER in ROME and His UPSIDEDOWN CRUCIFIXION under NERO

Part I] Evidence From the Holy Scriptures: There is no evidence at all.

Part II] Evidence From the Writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers:(a work in progress by Uncle Chip on Adiaireton8's behalf)

A. Clement of Rome --- No Evidence

B. Justin Martur --- No Evidence

C. Ignatius of Antioch ---(pending)

D. Irenaeus of Lyons ---(questionable)

E. Dionysius at Corinth --- (pending)

F. Tertullian --- (pending)

G. Hippolytus --- (pending)

H.

I.

J.

K.

[saradippity]

Love is also my top priority also:first to love God absolutely-------.

You cannot say that loud enough or often enough as far as I am concerned. I am so grateful for our relatively new Bishop of Phoenix,Bishop Thomas Olmsted. He continually emphasizes the First Commandment and that all good things flow from putting the love of God first.