Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[Uncle Chip]

". . . experienced in finding the Protestant anti-Catholics who belong to Churches of the Almighty Dollar. Tell me, what affiliation does your "church" have?"

----- It's certainly not affiliated with the Church of the Almighty Dollar. It doesn't own 20% of the realestate of Spain and have massive cathedrals and land holdings throughout the world and run a financial empire out of its headquarters in Rome that exceeds that of all Protestant denominations put together.

----- It's more like the Church of the Almighty God who gave us the incorruptible Word of God. You can join the church for free if you just open that Bible in your closet, or invest $29.95 for a good reliable one and open it regularly. Is that too much for you? Is that too much for the hope of eternal life????

[Uncle Chip]

"Corrrupted by Rome? Such as what? Please back up your accusations with facts."

----- How about the facts nailed to the chapel door at Wittenburg by a well educated and loyal Catholic Church Augustinian monk??????

[Running On Empty]

"Is that too much for you?"

Getting a bit personal so early on Sunday morning?

[AlaninSA]

Ah, like so many anti-Catholics you're unable or unwilling to name the denomination to which you belong. What are the beliefs of the church? Do they have a statement of faith?

Far too many attack the Catholic Church and then dodge questions about their own church. Why is this?

My assumption is that it's fear.

Fear of having their own faith challenged.

Fear of having their own "pastor" exposed.

Fear of finding that there's much more Truth in Catholic teachings than that of Bubba's House of Fire-n-Brimstone.

[Uncle Chip]

"Is that too much for you?"

Getting a bit personal so early on Sunday morning?

Isn't salvation a "personal" matter? Or do you get a group rate?

[Uncle Chip]

Ahhhh --- spoken like a true Catholic.

It's an open Bible church, one of those churches that the Vatican has lobbed all of those anathemas from the Council of Trent at. If you want to talk about "fear", you should first look inward, and ask "why does the Vatican fear those Bible believers so much that it has to pontificate anathemas against them"??????

[Iscool]

Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (essentially a spiritual form of the the sin of polygamy)? No, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many).

Jesus has

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. churches everywhere...

And if there ever was a pope, it had to have been Paul...

2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Paul's in charge of the Christian church(s)...

Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (essentially a spiritual form of the the sin of polygamy)? No, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many).

When was the wedding??? And the Marriage Supper of the Lamb???

[Running On Empty]

Again--you are being quite personal and sarcastic as well.

Welcome to Sunday.

Salvation has always been a personal matter, but it also has always had its communal dimension.

I'm sure you are aware of that.

[AlaninSA]

No such thing, Chip.

Afraid to identify the "church?"

That's fine. It's clear that you're not comfortable posting a statement of faith from that "church." Do they even have a website?

You see, Chip, our brethren who've moved away from the Catholic Church have a great unwillingness to be challenged. This is why they hide their doctrine and "theology."

We Catholics have ours completely available for the world to see.

I find it quite funny that an "evangelical" protestant congregation would be unwilling to share information on their beliefs.

If the beliefs are good, accurate and faithful -- they sharing them would bring in more believers, would it not?

[Uncle Chip]

"Again--you are being quite personal and sarcastic as well. "

---- and you're not being personal and accusatory?

Was sarcasm ever used by the prophets, the disciples, the apostles, ........ Did Jesus use sarcasm? Do you use sarcasm? ...... oh just not on Sunday?????

[Running On Empty]

No, I don't use or relish sarcasm.

It is Sunday and I hold Sunday to be a very special day. It is the day when I meet with my fellow Catholics at my parish to worship and to praise our God.

I also am lucky that I can be there on weekdays, too...as are many of my fellow Catholics.

It's quite natural that as a practicing Catholic (convert to the Church) that I don't like it when people acting as provocateurs come on threads that are Catholic subjects, and begin needling the Catholics with anti-Catholic posts.

The moderator here has made it clear that it's OK to do this on the open forum, and that if we have a rebuttal to make, to make it, but not to get personal.

It's very difficult to respond to posts that are openly condescending of my Faith and yet to respond in third person form or to try to get beyond the obvious in order to speak the truth in love.

Since I am not hard-wired for this kind of fighting, I am content to say that I withdraw and leave it to my Catholic brethren, those to whom God has given the gift for this kind of debate. I am grateful for them and to them.

I acknowledge that I can't contribute positively and effectively, though I wish that I could.

I ask God to bless you on this holy Sunday, this special day in the week.

And now I'm on my way to Mass.

[wmfights]

"Protestants cannot explain the fact that the early Church, spread all over the known world, held to the same Catholic faith."
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You've confused me with another poster who didn't want to answer questions and then accused me of ad hominen attacks.

The point I was trying to get across was the idea that Christianity was totally unified is a myth. There have been all types of different sects, including RC, from the beginning. Tertullian is just one example, he is not a St. in the RCC because he became a Montanist (similar to Pentecostals) later in his life.

The same mythology applies to the idea that Peter was some kind of "super" Apostle, or the belief that the RCC founded the Canon.

[Uncle Chip]

No such thing, Chip. Afraid to identify the "church?"

----- I just did.

That's fine. It's clear that you're not comfortable posting a statement of faith from that "church." Do they even have a website?

----- I'm not sure if there is a website. But I will tell you the one that it's teachings are closest to: Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. They have a website.

You see, Chip, our brethren who've moved away from the Catholic Church have a great unwillingness to be challenged. This is why they hide their doctrine and "theology."

----- There is nothing hidden about true Christian Churches and the Scriptures that they believe in. The RCC knows exactly what they believe. My goodness, ask them. They've been trying to silence them since the 5th century, and with earnest since the Reformation.

We Catholics have ours completely available for the world to see.

----- That's not really true, unless you can see into the minds of your Magisterium.

I find it quite funny that an "evangelical" protestant congregation would be unwilling to share information on their beliefs. If the beliefs are good, accurate and faithful -- they sharing them would bring in more believers, would it not?

----- We share them all the time by encouraging people to receive the Word of God in its simplicity --- to believe the truth according to the Scriptures not the elusive and unseen minds of a magisterium.

[Uncle Chip]

I didn't realize that Tertullian had been denied sainthood.
Does that mean that he is not considered part of the patriarchal tradition of the RCC? How many other early Christian writers are also excluded from the RCC's list of acceptable patriarchs?

[Iscool]

I suspect you didn't intend to post to me...

[PageMarker]

What bothers me about the Roman Catholic Church are the new ICEL hegelian dialectics of retranslated Scripture. I end up having to confess as "the Word of God" that which cannot be found in any Bible on the face of the earth. It comes as little surprise that 'ecclesiastical freemasonry' has entered the Church as is looking to destroy the Faith from within. The Jesuits and the Opus Dei are filled with illuminati elements whose objectives are to 'dumb down and destroy' the true beauty of what the Church really teaches masked in the relativism of New Age philosophies.

[wmfights]

Act 17:10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Act 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Apparently, they had something more to go on than just "word of mouth".
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I think your absolutely right that they were compiling writings. The Torah was already established and they had copies of the OT writings that made up the Talmud. I also think it is safe to believe that every church that received a letter made copies and these were passed on as well. The point I was trying to make was that until St. Athansius, on his own initiative, put together a definitive list we do not have a completed Canon. I have yet to find any historical record of the Canon being established and fixed prior to this date. Thus, the myth that the RCC established the Canon is debunked. The RCC affirmed a deed that was already done.

[Uncle Chip]

For information sake, where in Athanasius' writings does he provide a list of the books?

[wmfights]

"I didn't realize that Tertullian had been denied sainthood.
Does that mean that he is not considered part of the patriarchal tradition of the RCC? How many other early Christian writers are also excluded from the RCC's list of acceptable patriarchs?"
_________________________________

Great question. I don't know. I'm just guessing, but they don't disregard Augustine and he also changed his thinking later in life.

[wmfights]

"I suspect you didn't intend to post to me..."
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My mistake.