Posted on 09/29/2006 8:27:34 AM PDT by Buggman
What else can I say other than what I have already stated on numerous occasions?
I happen to agree with the vast majority of Christians who interpret the Scripture to say two fairly clear things:
1) The moral law regarding the weekly day of rest and worship was "changed" by the example of Jesus and His apostles from the last day to the first day of the week.
2) The ceremonial law having to do with the regulations of Israel as a "church under age" (to use the language of my confession) were temporary and passed away with the coming of the new covenant.
The arguments for both of these positions have been laid out from Scripture by faithful churchmen for 2000 years. It doesn't help for folks on your side to call this "paganism" or try to identify it as one other piece of erroneous Roman Catholic doctrine, since neither of these claim can be supported by reality. The fact is that there is a the vast number of non-pagans and non-Roman Catholics who hold (1) and (2) who get their views from the Bible rather than from Mount Olympus or Rome.
The bottom line for me is that I would need to have a very good, substantial reason from Scripture to buck the testimony of these faithful men for 2 millennia. Sine I believe in true sola Scriptura I believe that no Scripture is a matter of private interpretation, but rather the church as the body of Christ has a part in helping her children come to a correct understanding of the truth. That may sound "Roman Catholic" to those ignorant of church history and doctrine, but it is clearly the view of the magisterial reformers through whom my theology flows.
Some folks have had their "eyes opened" by sitting at the feet of recent, innovative teachers. My eyes were opened when I started to read in the Bible in light of the teachings of the historic church fathers. I trust the Holy Spirit in preserving truth in the "catholic" (universal; everywhere for all time) church. This is the difference between sola Scriptura and solo Scriptura.
The arguments I have seen here calling for change do not rise to the level of universal suitability. It's that simple. These practices -- last day sabbath-keeping and following old covenant shadows -- are not, according to Scripture, true marks biblical godliness or love for Christ.
Let me also make it clear that I do not believe this is simply a matter of taste, like chocolate vs. vanilla. Nor do I believe that God "speaks" differently to a handful last day sabbatarians than He does to the rest of us. That would make Him the author of confusion to His church.
I believe it boils down to a fundamental error on the part of last day sabbatarians and old covenant law-keepers as to how to interpret the Word of God.
If even the last day sabbatarians cannot agree on which laws are to be kept and which are not, why hold the rest of the church to an impossible standard?
With all this in mind, and since the universal teaching and practice of the church has been established for 2000 years, how would you go about changing that practice? Yes, you can convince an unwary soul here or there to adopt your views, but far more "Sunday keepers" are converted every year than the handful of folks who may adopt last day sabbatarian views.
How do you convince the larger church that your views are more than just a cultish fad?
"We", meaning.....generically.....modern Christianity, Tonto.
I really don't mind if any celebrate Christmas at all. And, I most certainly do not believe it is going to cause any to lose their salvation. Just know what is actually being celebrated.....is my point.
By your answer, I would assume you don't put much credence on the traditional holidays either.
There is no literal bread or passover sacrifice in view in that passage at all. So Luke and Paul are not speaking of the same "feast"
It is still called by the same name.....and takes place at the same time.....and the Apostles and their second, third, and fourth generation disciples still celebrated the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread well into the fourth century. You know that.
I've been busy today and have not had a chance to look through all these posts. That being said, given all your scripture verses on "not one iota will pass away until the Law is fulfilled" has been accomplished. The Law is finished, completed, satisfied. It was satisfied by Christ.
You and I and topcat and buggman and everyone else would never be able to keep the Law. Some people would say that's unfair of God to impose impossible standards. The Law isn't bad just because we can't live by it. But it does show our failings.
God demands perfection and breaking His Law is death. The solution was Christ.
The Law of the Spirit has sent us free from these restrictions so that, while we may fail and want to go to that baseball game on Saturday, God understands and has set us free to worship Him as best we can. Where we fail we have an advocate who intercedes for us and helps us in our weaknesses.
However, I also believe that God giving "looser" dietary standards for the Gentiles
was a mercy born out of His foreknowledge that not everyone would have kosher meat to eat.
There are many parts of the world where pig is the best food animal available,
and it would be putting people's health at risk to forbid them from it.
Therefore, I conclude that it is good for a person who has the luxury of choosing
what meats to eat to choose to keep kosher out of a love for and desire to be like
our Lord Yeshua in every way, but not required. I also believe that it's better to not
serve pork and shellfish at church functions as a show of respect for any Jews,
believers or not, who may be present. But as a matter of private practice,
since the Torah itself is ambiguous about the requirement for Gentiles to keep kosher
and the NT even more so, I consider that a matter of private conscience.
Guidance can be gained as to what is Rabbinical or not by reviewingPlease don't confuse the folks about Kosher which is rabbinical
b'shem Y'shua
and not scriptural and dietary standards which are in the Torah.
the Karaites, who strictly keep the Tanach and not the rabbinical traditions.
Then why bring it up, esp. when writing to me? And why denigrate those who do by referencing "drunken parties"? Either you have an issue with "Christmas" or you don't.
It is still called by the same name.....and takes place at the same time
The "temple" on earth and the "temple" in heaven and the "temple" that is the church are all "called by the same name", but they are clearly not the same thing.
Thus we see the same in 1 Cor. 5:7. Jesus is our spiritual "passover". We participate in His "passover" and we truly "keep the feast" when we practive our religion not with " malice and wickedness" but rather with "sincerity and truth". That is the simple teaching of 1 Cor. 5. There is absolutely no mention of the physical elements associated with the old cobvnant passover observance in that passage. He spiritualized the passover and applied it to Christ.
As I said in a earlier post, that fact that Paul was not speaking of the literal feast day of the Jews is evidenced by the fact that he later speaks of the commuion of Our Lord when the church is to participate in "often".
"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread." (1 Cor. 10:16,17).
The "breaking of bread" is the Lord's Supper, not the feast of the Jews. It is what the apostles did when they gathered together with the church (cf. Acts 2:42; 20:7). It is what the church does today on a regular basis.
This is the Lord's Supper wherein Christians remember our Lord's sacrifice on our behalf. It is not "the feast" since that phrase is never used in conjuction with the supper. Just read 1 Cor. 11.
A very important distinction; thank you for pointing that out.
With all this in mind, and since the universal teaching and practice of the church
has been established for 2000 years, how would you go about changing that practice?
Yes, you can convince an unwary soul here or there to adopt your views, but far more
"Sunday keepers" are converted every year than the handful of folks who may adopt last day sabbatarian views.
How do you convince the larger church that your views are more than just a cultish fad? Matthew 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn {bushes} nor figs from thistles, are they? Matthew 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.} Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
b'shem Y'shua
Do they worship Jesus as the Savior of men, and divine person of the triune God?
If not, then they do not "strictly keep the Tanach" since Jesus Himself said that the "Law of Moses" along with the Prophets and the Psalms all testified of Him.
If they do not recognize Jesus, why should we believe they properly interpret the Tanach?
The "Tanach" without Jesus is just another tradition of men, no?
[Matthew 7:13 etc.]
Again, without an interpretation of the passage which unequivocally condemns the theology and practice of the universal church for the last 2000 years, just quoting a verse is useless.
E.g., show us that eating swine flesh, for example, is a form of "lawlessness" according to the Bible.
All heretics and cults quote the Bible.
B'shem Y'shuaNo! I believe the Tanach is the Holy Word of G-d.
If not, then they do not "strictly keep the Tanach" since Jesus Himself said that the "Law of Moses" along with the Prophets and the Psalms all testified of Him.
If they do not recognize Jesus, why should we believe they properly interpret the Tanach?
The "Tanach" without Jesus is just another tradition of men, no?
Amen.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6
TC>The "Tanach" without Jesus is just another tradition of men, no?
Amen.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6
131 posted on 10/12/2006 10:32:30 AM MDT by Dr. Eckleburg
They simply do not know the foreign word: Jesus The Karaites know and profess that YHvH is their salvation.
b'shem Yah'shua
Exodus 15:2 "The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation;
"Yah has become my salvation" translates to Yah'shua
This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him.
So they do not follow the teaching of the apostles and prophets, is that correct? (Eph. 2:20)
Have they been baptized in the name or the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? (Matt. 28:19,20)
Do they "confessed with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believed in their hearts that God has raised Him from the dead?" (Rom. 10:9,10)
Do they follow the commands of Jesus? (John 14:15)
Peter said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", not "beleive on your rendition of 'YHvH' and you will be saved".
Sounds like they have a "zeal for God, but without knowledge." Unfortunately for them, Paul makes it clear that their zeal cannot save them. Neither can "Tanach" keeping. Only the acknowledged blood of the true Lamb of God.
If they are not followers of Jesus then they practice a false religion.
The "Tanach" without Jesus is a human tradition. Otherwise you can just throw out all of the NT since it serves no purpose.
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Gal. 3:24,25)
Matthew 25:40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'Y'shua is speaking about the Jews when he speaks of his brethrenMatthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matthew 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matthew 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
It does matter. And scripture does say that a holy convocation is to be held on the sabbath:
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
As far as worshipping on other days, certainly one can worship God on any day, but the sabbath is a mark, a reminder, a token, and a separate covenant that God HAS established with his children, the children of Israel:
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
God sanctified, set aside, specific days that he expects his worshipers to convene on. Convening on days AT THE EXPENSE of God's days at the best shows ignorance of God's instructions and at the worst blatant disregard and disobedience of God's instructions.
This might seem a little harsh, but those who purport to teach and expound on what exactly God wants are held to a pretty high standard. God does things, and wrote down things, for a reason. He knows that once human thought and reasoning begin to interpret an issue then corruption certainly follows.
In the case of the sabbath and his holy days, God left specific, written instuctions. Yet man in his wisdom has decided that they don't mean anything. There's something wrong with that and anyone who advocates and teaches something different should be called out on it.
Christ's brethren are those who believe in Him, and no other.
"And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, 'Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.' " (Matt12:49,50)
"Whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great." (Luke 9:48)
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)
Whoever does not acknowldege Jesus is not doing the will of the Father, and consequently is not Christ's brethren.
"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;" (Rom. 9:6,7)
"As it is written: 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.'" (Rom. 9:33)
The trick is to look at what all the Bible says about "Israel", anmd to not make excuses for unbelieving "Zion". In reality these Karaites are merely stumbling over Jesus.
The will of God is not bound up in the shadowy law of the old covenant. The will of God is in seeing Jesus Christ as He is revealed supernaturally in the Scriptures through the power of the Spirit.
Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. This is the problem one has. God doesn't have one standard for Jews and another for Gentiles. All are held accountable to His ONE standard. There is only one Ten Commandments. I doubt if any of us would say this is only applicable to the Jews. This is part of the Law. The WHOLE Law. There isn't part for this person and part for that person.
The problem is no one will be able to live by these standards. While you personally may wish to try to live your life to this standard, it is wrong to ask this of others. It amounts to living under the Law.
Convening on days AT THE EXPENSE of God's days at the best shows ignorance of God's instructions and at the worst blatant disregard and disobedience of God's instructions.
And that is in fact the issue. There's no problem with adding a day to be observed--like my oft-exampled annual pot-luck dinner to celebrate a particular congregation's founding--but any such gatherings must not violate God's Word or override His Appointed Times in any way, nor can such "local traditions" be used as a means of judging the orthodoxy or fellowship or faith of others.
So then, we can say that there's nothing wrong with having a Sunday service--or with having a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday service for that matter--but that those trying to follow a strictly Biblical belief, lacking any passage in the NT which overrides the Mosaic command, should gather together on the Sabbath as well.
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