Premillennialism: The Second Foundation

Tribulation Force ^ | Thomas Ice

[Quix]

The claim is easy to make. The hard part is backing it up with actual quotes from these folks that can reasonably be read "dispensationally". No one has successfully done that yet to my knowledge.

= = = =

To the best of my memory, Alamo-Girl has done that 2-3 times on FR.

I think Holland is well aware of that but for some reason seems to live in denial of that fact.

[xzins]

Since "dispensation" is a bible word, there is no definition beyond that definition which is necessary. Theologians can create books to no end, but in the long run it all comes down to the usage of the word in the bible.

The greek is oikonomia and it means "administration." It speaks of God's policy regarding dealing with humans.

[Quix]

OH, DEAR!??

YOU MEAN . . . uhhhh . . . whispering . . .

DISPENSATIONALISM

is NOT a 4 letter word?

OH, MY!

Don't tell Holland. Not sure they could handle it well.

LOL.

[.30Carbine]

Just because a king reigns does not mean there cannot be a rebellion and resistance. (Resistance, incidentally, is the basis of lostness.)

I'm thankful for your thread and have been following all the comments. Just wanted to say thanks!

[xzins]

You're welcome, .30. Pray for us.

[.30Carbine]

With thanksgiving!

[topcat54]

You have undoubtedly misunderstood me or did not catch this first statement or I did not make myself clear.

From your earlier post:

"If one does a word search for wrath in the bible it is alway associated with the great and dreadful day of the Lord, which is the return of Christ to earth.Tribulation is not associated with God it is always associated with man with this present world system."

I was only going off that fairly plain statement. Now you wish to limit the criteria, that is fine, but no doubt you will object when someone points out that "tribulation" doesn't always come from man and "wrath" doesn't always come from God. And thus your parameters for what happens in the future "seven year tribuation period" are limited by your arbitrary definitions.

[topcat54]

What is uniquely dispensational in any of these points from the chruch fathers? Or, better yet, how did the church fathers apply the "literal" hermeneutics of modern dispensationalism to arrive at their conclusions?

E.g., • Tertullian 210 AD • Marcion 4.12 - Jesus annulled the Sabbath.

The Christian church, for 2000 years, has believed that Jesus annulled the seventh day sabbath of the Jewish economy. There have been pockets of adventists and others that have taught otherwise, but they were a distinct minority.

Or are you merely confusing the use of the word "dispensation" with "dispensationalism". It's a common problem. That why I have chosen to use the term "economy" rather than "dispensation". They convey the same biblical thought.

I also find it amusing that Origen gets included in your list. Isn't he the notorious allegorizer that "literalist" dispensationalists are often railing against? If Origen came to his "dispensational" conclusions by applying an allegorizing method of viewing Scripture, do you really want to count him in your group?

[blue-duncan]

"B-D, would YOU agree that Christ is reigning as King over the universe or, do you believe as our Pre-dispensationlist friends do that Christ is waiting for some "future" event in time to reign?"

Rather than take up a lot of space in explaining my position concerning the Session of Christ and His reign, look at this site where Gill does an exceptional job. Especially look at Book V chapters 8, 13, 14.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/gills_archive.htm

[JohnnyM]

2 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

So Christ reigns. We all believe this. The difference seems to be that we believe that not all enemies are yet in subjection under His feet. That satan still roams the earth seeking whom he may devour. He abolishes all rule and authority only after the saints have been joined with Him at His coming (v.23-24), which clearly has not happened yet.

JM

[xzins]

Excellent post, great scripture. Thanks JM.

[Alamo-Girl]

Theologians can create books to no end, but in the long run it all comes down to the usage of the word in the bible.

Amen! Excellent points, all of them. Thank you for the ping!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Rather than take up a lot of space in explaining my position...

lol. That's just like a lawyer -- when you ask for a clear answer, they send you to the stacks.

It seems all this millennium questioning comes down to those who say Christ is waiting to reign on earth, and those who say Christ is reigning today on earth as well as in heaven.

And when that's the choice, I don't understand those in the former category. What's to be lost by believing Christ reigns today? By believing the Gospel is doing its work by the light of the Holy Spirit exactly as God has determined and that the Gospel will triumph over the world's lies?

I think Christians are often unaware just how much the world conspires to tie their hands. And yet they still say they believe Christ broke their bonds. They still remember their own conversion. They still preach to others so that they might believe.

Well, that's called progress. We acknowledge God's refining hand when it has actually changed our own lives. We need to recognize this pattern and glory in it. Two steps forward; one step back. Not the other way around.

I think the fascination with all the futurist millennium stuff is men's carnal minds seeking pleasure in puzzles and word games and things unknown. If we realized just how much of this is gnostic and Kabbalistic, we'd flee the interview and run back to Scripture's promise that Jesus Christ has "spoiled principalities and powers; he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it" (Col. 2:15).

POSTMILLENIALISM: WISHFUL THINKING OR CERTAIN HOPE?

[blue-duncan]

Come on now. The last time I posted an involved answer you protested it was too long and should have its own thread. Now I post one of your own sites to give an answer and you complain. Sheesh, can't satisfy you even when I agree with one of your own. By the way, Gill's commentary on the Session is a classic. I was discussing this with my father Sunday afternoon and at his age he still gets tears when discussing the mediatorial work of Christ.

[HarleyD]

I always enjoy pictures of people of John Gill's era. It makes me long for times when I could have a head full of hair without having a head full of hair.

A curious thing happened at church this past weekend in which the leader ask our group if they felt Christ was reigning on earth. I was surprise to hear the concensus of the group was that Christ was not reigning on earth.

This raised in my mind a question that I've seen posted by Gill (per your reference), Piper and others about Christ reigning spiritually but not physically. What's that suppose to mean? As we know from scripture, the demons are subjected to Christ. If so, what is left in this world physically that God does not have control over?

[JohnnyM]

Harley we know that God has all things in His control. This was so from the beginning of Creation, before the Cross came into play. God was in control before Christ died and He was in control after He died. The demons were subject to God before Christ died and the demons were subject to God after Christ died. I will even go a step further. The demons were in subjection to Christ before the foundation of the world. They were in subjection to Him before the earthly event of the Crucifixion.

So now, Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings. He reigns, but we still see things not in subjection to Him. For example, people still die. People still get sick. People still cry. People still mourn. The devil is still roaming the earth like a lion seeking whom he may devour. His enemies are still fighting against the saints. There will be a time, during His reign, when these things will all be defeated. There will be no more death. There will be no more tears. The devil and his minions will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, never to torment the saints again.

JM

[Dr. Eckleburg]

WRITE THE BOOK!

A father/son Christian story is under-represented. Instead we get the goofy "Field of Dreams." I think men are longing for stories about father/sons.

Write one.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...when I agree with one of your own.

My own?

[blue-duncan]

I think Gill covers that in his sermon on the Session of Christ. We tend to overlook the fact that in His position as glorified humanity He is "seated at the right hand" of God, localized in that position in His mediatorial function, while being God He rules over all, including creation. He is the eternal King over all.

[John 6.66=Mark of the Beast?]

I did paint with a very broad brush and I apologize for that, that is why I narrowed it down to the tribulation and wrath period due to your original question of What's the difference between "trib" and "wrath"?

How do you arive at a 7 year tribulation period?