Premillennialism: The Second Foundation

.30C, this is an excellent post, biblical, and guided by the Holy Spirit. God's foreknowledge is often overlooked, yet the bible makes it so central.

[He] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity 2 Timothy 1:9

This particular verse is so critical: it shows that the mind of God is not chaotic, but that He is knowing, purposed, and gracious.

So often we want to divorce his knowledge from His power or vice versa; we want to divorce his power & knowledge from His gracious nature....all of these efforts create some sort of odd being who "can't talk and chew gum at the same time."

Actually God can know, purpose, and love simultaneously. Along this same line, the Creator has given a small glimpse in these human creatures He has designed: We can be decisive, informed, purposed, and compassionate all at the same time.

God foreknew who would believe when given the Gospel and those were 'appointed' to eternal life (Rom.8).

If all men are sinners without exception (and they are), so is the gift of grace for all men.

Hallelujah, amen! For the Grace of God is Greater than man's sin - "where sin abounded, grace abounded much more," says Romans 5:20

We say with Paul (1 Cor. 15:10)

His grace toward me was not in vain!

Actually God can know, purpose, and love simultaneously. Along this same line, the Creator has given a small glimpse in these human creatures He has designed: We can be decisive, informed, purposed, and compassionate all at the same time.

AMEN, so well worded! Thank you so much for this reply to me! How I rejoice in this fellowship!

PS - I had the great joy of being able to listen all last week to RZIM's Joe Boot, filling in for Ravi Zacharias, on the subject "Wise as Serpents, Gentle as Doves."

God's foreknowledge is not "overlooked" by the Reformed. Indeed, it is understood in its fullness, rather than being limited by Arminians to a simple "awareness."

If God "knows" something, that thing will happen. If God wants something else to happen, something else will happen and God will "know" it.

There's been so much written about a correct understanding of "foreknowledge" that I think it comes down to the fact that Arminians would simply "prefer" to believe that God is limited by His foreknowledge of some event, when in truth, God is in control of ALL events.

What God purposed at the moment of creation, will occur. Period.

It seems Arminians keep coming back to their own autonomy; that somehow God has released His grip on reality to permit independent behavior. It is the same instinct of Adam and Eve. The very same, although it's dressed up in words like "free will" and self-determination."

At its heart, election according to God's awareness of our choosing to have faith puts man in the driver's seat and in control of whether or not he receives salvation. It pats man on the back for having the good sense and righteousness to believe when his neighbor is not so clever or pious.

But throughout Scripture we are told all men are fallen and no man seeks God, and that salvation is a gift by God's grace alone through faith in Christ. Faith is the instrument with which God dispenses His grace.

It is all of Him and none of us.

"And when the gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

Ordained to believe; ordained to eternal life by God's holy decree, issued by Him and sent out into the universe at the moment of creation. He does not rule by the sense of direction of His creation; He rules His creation by His hand and will and design.

You miss so much if you do not understand that.

THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD (Chapter 6)

"The Arminian objection against foreordination bears with equal force against the foreknowledge of God. What God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain.
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago. The Arminian doctrine, in rejecting foreordination, rejects the theistic basis for foreknowledge. Common sense tells us that no event can be foreknown unless by some means, either physical or mental, it has been predetermined. Our choice as to what determines the certainty of future events narrows down to two alternatives — the foreordination of the wise and merciful heavenly Father, or the working of blind, physical fate.
The Socinians and Unitarians, while not so evangelical as the Arminians, are at this point more consistent; for after rejecting the foreordination of God, they also deny that He can foreknow the acts of free agents. They hold that in the very nature of the case it cannot be known how the person will act until the time comes and the choice is made. This view of course reduces the prophecies of Scripture to shrewd guesses at best, and destroys the historic Christian view of the Inspiration of the Scriptures. It is a view which has never been held by any recognized Christian church. Some of the Socinians and Unitarians have been bold enough and honest enough to acknowledge that the reason which led them to deny God's certain foreknowledge of the future acts of men, was, that if this be admitted it would be impossible to disprove the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination.
Many Arminians have felt the force of this argument, and while they have not followed the Unitarians in denying God's foreknowledge, they have made it plain that they would very willingly deny it if they could, or dared. Some have spoken disparagingly of the doctrine of foreknowledge and have intimated that, in their opinion, it was not of much importance whether one believed it or not.
Some have gone so far as to tell us plainly that men had better reject foreknowledge than admit Predestination. Others have suggested that God may voluntarily neglect to know some of the acts of men in order to leave them free; but this of course destroys the omniscience of God. Still others have suggested that God's omniscience may imply only that He can know all things, if He chooses,—just as His omnipotence implies that He can do all things, if He chooses. But the comparison will not hold, for these certain acts are not merely possibilities but realities, although yet future; and to ascribe ignorance to God concerning these is to deny Him the attribute of omniscience. This explanation would give us the absurdity of an omniscience that is not omniscient.
When the Arminian is confronted with the argument from the foreknowledge of God, he has to admit the certainty or fixity of future events. Yet when dealing with the problem of free agency he wishes to maintain that the acts of free agents are uncertain and ultimately dependent on the choice of the person,—which is plainly an inconsistent position. A view which holds that the free acts of men are uncertain, sacrifices the sovereignty of God in order to preserve the freedom of men.
Furthermore, if the acts of free agents are in themselves uncertain, God must then wait until the event has had its issue before making His plans. In trying to convert a soul, then He would be conceived of as working in the same manner that Napoleon is said to have gone into battle-with three or four plans in mind, so that if the first failed, he could fall back upon the second, and if that failed, then the third, and so on, —a view which is altogether inconsistent with a true view of His nature. He would then be ignorant of much of the future and would daily be gaining vast stores of knowledge. His government of the world also, in that case, would be very uncertain and changeable, dependent as it would be on the unforeseen conduct of men.
To deny God the perfections of foreknowledge and immutability is to represent Him as a disappointed and unhappy being who is often checkmated and defeated by His creatures. But who can really believe that in the presence of man the Great Jehovah must sit waiting, inquiring, "What will he do?" Yet unless Arminianism denies the foreknowledge of God, it stands defenseless before the logical consistency of Calvinism; for foreknowledge implies certainty and certainty implies foreordination.
Speaking through the prophet Isaiah the Lord said: "I am God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure," Isaiah 46:10. "Thou understandest my thoughts afar off," said the psalmist, 139:2. He "knoweth the heart," Acts 15:8. "There is no creature that is not manifest in His sight; but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do," Hebrews 4:13..."

It continues; it's a chapter well worth your time to read.

Thank you both so much for sharing your wisdom and insights!

the new birth occurs in Time. At that moment, all that God Knows from Eternity and is always true in Him - becomes reality for us - that is, our election, salvation, justification, glorification.

Amen.

Just as the atonement was from eternity past so is election.

The Atonment made salvation possible for all men, not necessary.

All men are born dead in sins.

If they were elect from eternity they would be saved from eternity, not born into sin.

You can't be elected in 'eternity past' and be in Christ and yet, be born into sin and be spiritually dead. Of course you can, and this is where you make your fatal error. Men are born into sin and they die sinning. The leopard cannot change his spots. But even in our sins, we have been forgiven by Christ's atonement for us. So yesterday's sins are forgiven; today's sin; and even tomorrow's sins -- all paid for by the blood of Christ, according to God's election, and not due to anything inherently righteous within us. God saves us because He sees Christ within us, given to us by God, one name at a time.

That is not dealing with the problem.

If you are in Christ from eternity, then how are you born into Adam?

Did you jump out of Christ?

The basis for eternal security is being in Chirst, so how is one in Christ before one is born and then is born in the 1st Adam?

Once inside of Christ you cannot get out, unless you believe as the Armianian's do, that you can lose your salvation.

And so, by the inward working of the Holy Spirit, we miraculously sin less and less.

Really?

No volition involved? (Rom.6-7)

And if the Spirit limits some sinning why not all?

And if the Spirit limits some sinning little by little, why not all at once?

Certainly it is not God's will that we sin so why does God allow it and how do we resist God's will in doing so?

All as God ordained, determined, willed, decreed, planned, executed, written in the indelible blood of Christ for all time. God's "foreknowledge" is just a cop-out, clinging to some phantom righteousness within us which God responds to. It's just not there. All men sin all the time.

God's foreknowledge is as real as His Predestination.

In fact, God's Predestination is based on it.

The only reason 'all' men are not saved is because they refuse the free gift of salvation That philosophy assaults the Holy Spirit to the heart by saying the work of the Holy Spirit can be refused by men. I just don't recognize that Holy Spirit anywhere in Scripture.

The Holy Spirit can be refused by men, as Stephen himself says in Acts 7.

You and I refuse the Holy Spirit everytime we sin and that is why God gave us 1Jn.1:9.

Now don't tell me you don't sin!

Or, are you sinning because God wants you to do so?

God saves whom He will, solely based on His good pleasure, according to His determinant plan for salvation, ordained before the foundation of the world, for His glory alone. If God wanted all men saved, all men would be saved.

God does want all men to be saved (1Tim.2:4), and all are not saved because God gave man the choice.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Yes, and the 'things' in context with that chapter are referring to doctrines dealing with spirtual growth, not salvation.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ" -- 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

Yes, and the mind of Christ states that God wants all men to be saved, nor does He take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Did you obtain "the mind of Christ" on your own? Or even with a "little" help from God? Or was God 100% responsible for putting Christ within you and giving you a new heart with which to know Him?

I received the Indwelling Holy Spirit when I believed in Christ (1Cor.6).

The Holy Spirit explains scripture through the use of Pastors and teachers, with the scriptures (KJB) as the final authority (Gen.40:8, Ps.119:18, 30, Eph.4:11-12)

That means that Scripture cannot contradict other scripture which Calvinism ignores.

Clear scripture interpets more complex scripture and the clearest scriptures in the Bible are Jn.3:16 and 3:36.

All theology must begin with those clear scripture as it's foundation, not with Eph.1:4, or Rom.8:29-30.

Your volition is involved when you reject God's will and sin, and if you deny that then you are you are contradicting what Paul wrote in Rom.6:1-2

As for being born of the Spirit, what does that have do with anything we are discussing?

You still live in the flesh and have to yield to one or the other and that yieldness is based on your will.

If you are in Christ from eternity, then how are you born into Adam?

All men are the sons of Adam, lost in sin.

Some men were ordained by God to salvation by Christ's atonement through nothing in themselves, through grace alone.

That's exactly what Scripture tells us.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

I didn't write it. I just read it and believe it.

God does want all men to be saved

If God wanted all men saved, all men would be saved.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" -- Ephesians 1:4-7

It's all about grace, ftd. And you're missing the connection. You're plugging into men's own righteousness when it is the righteousness of Christ which saves us, according to God's will for His glory, and not our own.

I agree with you when you say that all men are born in sin - this is what Scripture says. All are "in Adam" the first man, a sinner. But when you say that the elect are not born into sin you oppose Jesus Christ who said, "You must be born again." As the Word teaches (John 3:6), "That which is born of flesh is flesh," and all who are alive as we know human life on the earth are born once in the flesh, descended from the first man Adam, a sinner - in Adam all die.

"That which is born of Spirit is Spirit," the teaching continues. Therefore that which has been born in flesh, being born again in Spirit, evidences election.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
~Romans 8:9

We are not born with the Spirit of Christ, but with the flesh of Adam. In order to obtain the Spirit of Christ we must be born again.

No man evidences election without being born again. This is an "in time" event. Just as Christ was "crucified from the foundation of the world" and yet appeared in time approximately two thousand years ago, so we who "today" are born again, are demonstrating that we were actually crucified with Christ from the foundation of the world.

Jesus makes demand on all mankind: "You must be born again."
(I'm currently reading John Piper's new book on What Jesus Demands from the World, and he explains these demands very well.)

Some are born again - they lay down their lives and partake of the life of Christ Jesus! Some are not born again - they refuse to die to their first life, the life of Adam.

That certain men are not born again does not relieve them of the duty to obey the command!

That any men at all are born again brings glory to God through Jesus Christ!

The Atonment made salvation possible for all men, not necessary.

Atonement is indeed necessasary!

"Apart from the shedding of blood there is not remission of sin (Heb. 9:22)."

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31)."

"By faith in the Name of Jesus was this man made well (Acts 3:16)."

"You must be born again (John 3:6)."

First, I never said that one did not have to be 'born again' to be saved.

If one is saved in eternity, how does one get out of Christ and into Adam? Second, the Atonement made salvation possible for all men, but it did not make it 'necessary' for any man, in other words, every man has to accept the Atonement to be saved.

The Atonement makes salvation necessary for no man, it is a potential for every man.

Thus, the 'elect' were not saved in eternity by the Atonement, but rather God foresaw who would accept it and get into Christ.

The Calvinists believe that God decided who was going to be saved and it was those whose sins were paid for at the Cross, not the sins of the world (1Jn.2:2)

Thus, for them, the Atonement makes salvation 'necessary' for the already chosen elect (they must be saved since Christ died for their sins)

If you are in Christ from eternity, then how are you born into Adam? All men are the sons of Adam, lost in sin.

Not according to Calvinism, which says that they are saved (elect) from eternity

Some men were ordained by God to salvation by Christ's atonement through nothing in themselves, through grace alone.

And when did this ordaining happen according to Calvinism-in eternity.

Thus, the Calvinist would have the elect saved in eternity by the Decree of God, and yet lost in time, only to be saved again

Now, if you want to use ordaining as it should be used-appointed, then you can say that God foresaw who would believe in time and appointed them to eternal life based on that pre-foreseen faith.

They could not have been saved in eternity by any Decree that God made.

I notice also, that you have yet to deal with Romans 5.

So, if 'all' have been into Adam, as Romans 5 says, what about this 'greater grace' that Christ gave, came upon all men unto justification of life?

That's exactly what Scripture tells us. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48 I didn't write it. I just read it and believe it. God does want all men to be saved If God wanted all men saved, all men would be saved.

No, God doesn't want you to sin, but you do, now don't you?

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" -- Ephesians 1:4-7 It's all about grace, ftd. And you're missing the connection. You're plugging into men's own righteousness when it is the righteousness of Christ which saves us, according to God's will for His glory, and not our own.

Oh, stop with the Calvinist nonsense.

Faith is without works as stated in Rom.4.

Grace is never about not having a will to make a choice, but in God providing the choices.

What you want to ignore is clear scriptures that state that God wants all men to be saved (1Tim.2:4), died for all men (1Jn.2:2, Heb.2:9) and draws all men to Him (Jn.12:32)

Calvinism is cultic in its refusal to compare scripture with scripture and in its rejection of Sola Scriptura based on a philosophical premise that opposes what Scripture clearly teaches-God is love (1Jn.4:8)