Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins
This one is new to me. I Know that H. A. Ironside was predicting that Israel must come into their land in unbelief at least 30 years before it happened.
Ezek 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Literally and, more importantly figuratively.
**My concern with it is based more on who inhabits the land after the return of Christ, than it is on whether or not Christians suffer persecution in the tribulation.***
As I was taught by a pre-trib teacher years ago, all Christians are ambassadors for Christ. Before God can pour out his wrath on a sinful world he must recall his ambassadors (the rapture).
I still maintain that anything PAST the catching up to be with the Lord becomes speculation.
***a Conservative Baptist, and it caused him some distress with his denomination, because the are pre-trib rapturists, pretty much from top to bottom. ***
I read a few years back that the Southern Baptist Church has never officially endorsed the "dispensational" form of theology even though Scofield's work has taken the churches by storm.
In the Independent Baptist churches J.R. Rice did not seem to give much attention the pre-millenial position but later Curtis T. Hutson did. In the 1980's and 1990's they were busy selling the Old Scofield bible through their publication THE SWORD OF THE LORD.
In Luke, the Gospel to the Gentiles ...
Where does that come from? Seven
The Conservative Baptist church came about after a split with the American Baptist church a number of decades back.
Ezek 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
But Ezekiel 37 also says:
Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it," says the Lord.' " (vv. 12-14)The progress in v. 14 especially indicted repentance/regeneration ("I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live") followed by restoration ("I will place you in your own land"). The opening the graves happens before the return to the land.
Since Ezekiel is speaking in highly figurative language, it's hard to know how a pure literalist like Ironside would deal effectively with the entire passage.
Of course this is still all specualtion on Ironside's part regarding future Israel since the passage weas actually fulfilled mainly in the past when Israel was brought up from ancient Babylon to return to the land.
In Luke, the Gospel to the Gentiles, we find the universal nature of the Tribulation.
This certainly explains why differ language would be used to describe the same event. But it does not explain why most of the language in both passage is localized to Judea.
A reasonable conclusion is that it refers to the localized events surrounding destruction of the temple in AD70. (The universal sounding language here is explained by a careful comparison with OT prophetic language.) Matthew pictures it in language that would be recognizable by a Jew, while Luke speaks in words more suitable for a gentile audience. But they both describe ancient Rome -- Daniel's fourth kingdom which was eventually replaced by the eternal kingdom of Christ and His saints (Dan. 7:27) -- marching againt Jerusalem. "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her" (Luke 21:21).
No one has yet been able to explain why, if this is worldwide tribulation in view, that folks in one tiny part of the world are told to "flee to the mountains". Why no mention of the mountains in, say, Colorado?
No one also has explained why, after having these warnings from Jesus for 2000 years, that still in the futurist "great tribulation" holocaust that two-thirds of the Jews living in Israel still be exterminated. It wouldn't be a big deal for a bunch of believers to go into Israel and put up billboards around Jeruaslem saying:
Jesus to Israel: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her."Perhaps you could replace the phrase "surrounded by armies" with "abomination of desolation", but I'm not sure how many of them would get it.
And since even armed soldiers like the Taliban were not able to make effect use of the mountains in Afghanistan for protection from invading armies, why would it be safe for unarmed folks in a future universal conflagration to flee in such a fashion?
Not everyone accepts the conclusion that it is the same narrative being spoken by Jesus, even though that fact is quite clear, and all signs point to AD70.
My old Scofield Bible was ruined in a flood at work many years ago. I really need to get a new one. It's a classic.
1000silverlings: Literally and, more importantly figuratively.
What a great answer! I'm going to remember that.
My hope is built on nothing less,
Than Thompson Chain and Moody Press.
I dare not trust the Scofield Chain,
But wholly lean on Thompson's name.
My parents spend thousands of dollars on a Christian school education and this is what I remember...
lol. Not a penny wasted. 8~)
Anyone got a comment on these verses?
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.
And...
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
This sounds to me like all of the old testament prophecies were to be fulfilled in the generation when Christ was preached.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
First of all, nearly all Biblical prophecy is centered in Judea, describing the world's events through the lens of Israel.
Secondly, such a vantage makes perfect sense within futurist, premillennial eschatology, since it is in the Temple in Jerusalem that the Abomination of Desolation will take place, where the Man of Sin "as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Th. 2:4).
A reasonable conclusion is that it refers to the localized events surrounding destruction of the temple in AD70.
Rather, that is a reasonable partial explanation. Certainly, the Lord had the 70 AD destruction in view, but that hardly discounts the futurist view. Again, the very essence of Hebrew prophecy is that there is a cycle of events, so that one prophecy may speak of several events in part, leading up to a final conclusion. The Abomination of Desolation is a key example.
And there most certainly must be a future "literal" fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse, as the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD left numerous points unfulfilled or fulfilled only in rough type:
1) The Abomination of Desolation. By citing the specific Abomination of Desolation which was predicted by Daniel (11:31) and already fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, Yeshua left no doubt as to what would happen, but Sha'ul (Paul) clarified it even further: As Antiochus set up a false god in the Holy of Holies (Zeus), so will the Antichrist--only this time, that false god will be himself. Titus Vespasian, due to fire breaking out in the Temple, was never able to commit this act.
2) Even if we were to suppose that Titus had time to commit this act, the order of events would be wrong: By the time the Temple was invaded and destroyed, it was far too late to flee Jerusalem in obedience to the Lord's command.
3) A Great Tribulation worse than any before or since. Most scholars believe that somewhere in the neighborhood of two million Jews died in 70 AD and the years immediately following. Six million Jews died in the Holocaust. Do the math. Nor can it be said that in 70 AD, all flesh--whether all flesh in the world or all Jewish flesh--was in any danger of being wiped out.
4) The sign of the sun, moon, and stars. First, those who try to allegorize this event have to deal with the fact that the entire rest of the passage is given in straightforward prophetic narrative, not apocalyptic symbolism, so it's inconsistant to say that the Lord suddenly changed genres in mid-sentence in order to allegorize this passage away.
But even if we could allegorize this event in some way, it still wouldn't help the preterist. In every other passage where the sun, moon, and stars are described as darkening (e.g., Isa. 13, Joel 2-3, etc.) it heralds God's judgment on the Gentiles who have come against Israel, not on Israel herself. For example, we see in Joel 3:11-16 & 20-21,
Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O YHVH. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the Day of YHVH is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. YHVH also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but YHVH will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel. . .5) The visible Second Coming. There are several events that are impossible to view as happening in 70 AD which are tied together with the Second Coming. First, the Resurrection of the Dead and the Rapture (1 Th. 4:15-17). If the dead were raised bodily and the Church "caught up" in 70 AD, no one seems to have noticed that event and recorded it, least of all the Church fathers. Second, the reconciliation of all Israel, for as Zechariah describes, after they see Him whom they pierced and "all the land" mourn, "every family apart,"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for YHVH dwelleth in Zion.
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith YHVH-Tzva'ot (the Lord of Hosts), that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.Didn't this happen at the Crucifixion? you ask, citing John 19:37. Only in part. But the whole land did not mourn for Yeshua--only His followers did, who were definitively a minority. Nor was this fount of forgiveness opened up for all the House of David and Jerusalem, or else they would not have been punished in 70 AD. Rather, this prophecy is parallel to the one which Sha'ul cites in Rom. 11:25-29, looking forward to a future day when the same Israel which is currently the enemy of the Gospel would be saved not because of their own goodness, but for the sake of YHVH's Name.
Moreover, Zechariah goes on to describe the Lord opening an escape way through the Mt. of Olives for israel. smiting all the nations that came against Jerusalem with a plague, and forcing all of the survivors to come yearly for the Feast of Sukkot. And before that (in ch. 12) we likewise see the Lord destroying the nations that come against Jerusalem--indeed, leading Israel in battle in the person of Yeshua, the Angel of the Lord. Have any of these things happened? Hardly.
Now in regard's to Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse, it is popular for the preterist side to take it to be the "true interpretation," so that the Abomination of Desolation really means the armies surrounding Jerusalem, for example. However, key differences between this discourse and that presented in Matthew and Mark have led some (like Chuck Missler) to believe that Luke was a separate but parallel discourse given in the Temple a few days before Yeshua left it once and for all (compare Mat. 23:38f and Luke 21:37f).
Another possibility is that through Luke, Sha'ul is making a drash, "digging out" a secondary meaning of the Lord's words and emphasizing it through a deliberate paraphrase. But it's clear that if so, Luke's record must be viewed as the secondary meaning, not the primary. Sha'ul himself refers to the Abomination of Desolation being a man proclaiming himself to be a god in God's Temple, not the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies.
Arguing about which is the primary and which the secondary meaning is, of course, mere semantics. The fact is that there were many specific prophecies in the Olivet Discourse which were not fulfilled in 70 AD, whether one thinks that a local or a worldwide event is in mind.
The universal sounding language here is explained by a careful comparison with OT prophetic language.
Only if one also allegorizes the prophecies of the Tanakh as well. And while some prophecies are certainly given in allegorical, poetic, or apocalyptic form, none of those automatically rule out a literal interpretation. Tell me, was the Lord literally born of a virgin? Was He literally born in Bethlehem? Did His first Coming arrive a literal 483 years (setting aside the issue of whether an adjustment is in order) after the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem? Was He literally pierced? Was He the literal son of David? Did the Lord whom Israel sought literally come to His Temple? Was He literally slain as a sacrifice for our sins? Was He literally crucified in the manner described in Psalm 22?
How then can you scoff when the premillennialist insists that the prophecies of the Second Coming will be fulfilled just as literally as those of the first?
Matthew pictures it in language that would be recognizable by a Jew, while Luke speaks in words more suitable for a gentile audience.
The problem with that broad stroke is that Mark was also written for a Gentile audience, but uses the same language as Matthew.
But they both describe ancient Rome -- Daniel's fourth kingdom which was eventually replaced by the eternal kingdom of Christ and His saints (Dan. 7:27) -- marching againt Jerusalem.
Was it? When? The Roman Empire (if one includes its Eastern leg) continued for another 1400 years! And as a Reformist, you would hardly argue that the merging of the Church and State resulted in the true expression of God's Kingdom on earth, would you? If so, you should cease your rebellion and bow to the Pope!
No one has yet been able to explain why, if this is worldwide tribulation in view, that folks in one tiny part of the world are told to "flee to the mountains". Why no mention of the mountains in, say, Colorado?
Already answered: 1) All prophecy is given through the lens of Israel, so the emphasis is hardly surprising, and 2) that is where the Antichrist will first proclaim himself to be God, with his armies in place to enforce his claim. We in America will almost certainly have a few days or weeks of confusion to slip away in--but those on ground zero will need to leave on the instant if they are to escape the teeth of the trap.
No one also has explained why, after having these warnings from Jesus for 2000 years, that still in the futurist "great tribulation" holocaust that two-thirds of the Jews living in Israel still be exterminated.
How is that a question? How many Jews in Israel regard Yeshua as the Messiah, or even a prophet? It's only a recent thing that He's begun to be accepted as a rabbi.
It wouldn't be a big deal for a bunch of believers to go into Israel and put up billboards around Jeruaslem saying:
Waitwaitwait. You're saying that the estimated 1/4 to 1/3 of Messianic believers in Jerusalem in 70 AD weren't able to convince the remaining of the population to flee Rome's armies, but that a 5% minority would? How is that logical? How does this even require an explanation? Are you bothering to think through your own questions before you post them, or are you just shotgunning them in the hopes that some of the shot will hit the mark?
And since even armed soldiers like the Taliban were not able to make effect use of the mountains in Afghanistan for protection from invading armies, why would it be safe for unarmed folks in a future universal conflagration to flee in such a fashion?
Gee, I dunno. How is Osama staying hidden with a sizable number of his forces in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan? Why have we not yet been able to find every last Al-Qaida member on the plains of Iraq? Could it possibly be that even modern intellegence techniques are not perfect?
Moreover, we see in Dan. 11:41 that "Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon"--which is to day, modern Jordan--are not conquered by the Antichrist. Gee, could it be that God protects that country, which is just over the mountains from Israel, so that the faithful will have a place to hide?
Sorry, TC, but it just doesn't work. None of your objections are insurmountable--indeed, I was able to answer them all just off the top of my head. It is quite obvious that even if there is a "near" prophetic fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse in 70 AD (which I would agree with), the complete fulfillment of every last detail is yet future to us.
Counterexample
Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Excellent post!
Let me say that regarding Luke, it dealt with the 70AD seige of Jerusalem in vs. 20-24.
Verses 25-28 deal with future events.
Verse 25 speaks of the earth and nations, hence the universal nature of the tribulation.
As for why many Jews do not believe what is going to happen (as do many Gentiles and Christians), it is because of deception and disbelief in what the Bible says (2Pe.3:3-4).
No doubt that most Jews had given up on the coming Messiah also,but he came, just as the prophets predicted, but not like the interpetators thought.
They did not know that Christ had been born in Bethlehem but lived in Nazareth (Jn.7:42 cf 52).
Just as the 1st advent prophecies were literally fulfilled, so will be the 2nd.
Matthew goes back to Abraham.
Luke goes back to Adam.
Mark has no geneology and is the Gospel of a servant.
The Gospel of John goes back to the eternity with Christ as the Word, the Second person of the Trinity.
Each Gospel has a different emphasis.
Christ as King of the Jews, (Matthew), the Second Adam (Luke), the perfect servant (Mark) and God in the flesh (John)
Israel is said to be returned to her land twice (Isa.11) and never to be removed (Amos.9:15).
Israel has to be in the land to have a temple in which the anti-Christ can sit!
Israel has to be in the land in which to have the ability to make a peace treaty with the anti-Christ.
The fact that the Jews are back in the land and have Jerusalem again as their capital is very much a part of prophecy, no less so then the degeneration of the Church predicted by Paul (1Tim.4,2Tim.3)
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