Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins
Thanks Quix. The angels told us that "in like manner" as he ascended will he return.
FWIW the Greek word for "this" which is used there can also be translated as "the same" Mt24:13. So it clearly can be translated as "the same generation" which sees all these things shall not pass away until all if fulfilled.
Since all that which preceeded the statement was clearly not fulfilled in 70AD we can therefore conclude that the reference was not to the 70AD generation, but the same generation that would see all these things fulfilled.
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NOW BRO MARLOWE, TSK TSK!
I'd think such an esteemed scholar would realize that trying to enlarge tidy little boxed constructions on reality with hard Scriptural facts would be a useless exercise in futility. Such tidy little boxes are immune to
1. Scriptural truth
2. Linguistic truth
3. Cultural truth
4. Logical truth.
But, it's a valiant effort. Commendable in the caring. But, please, dear brother, avoid holding your breath waiting for agreement!
LOL.
Great points. Thanks.
I think we are well able to recognize the rubber Bible stuff on this thread.
Nothing is "clear" unless it conforms to artitrary literalism that changes depending on the "prophecy expert".
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Balderdash.
There's plenty in the basic broad outline that all the reputable folks would agree on.
1. The descendants of Jacob were brought back by God to their homeland in 1948; formed a nation and again used Hebrew as the national language as also foretold in Scripture--and as no other nation in all of recorded history has ever done after such a dispersion.
2. Jerusalem has become a mill stone around the neck of the whole world as Biblically predicted for the END TIMES.
3. Gog and Magog have risen as powers sufficient to fulfill END TIMES PROPHECIES in league with the king of the south--also rising in power as predicted . . . and with Syria as predicted . . . Turkey has yet to overtly join them but has the culture suited for it. She will
4. The "King of the East" whether China; China and the -stans; India and the -stans or all the above is also poised and in league with military agreements against Israel as Biblically predicted.
NONE OF THESE THINGS OCCURRED ANY WHERE NEAR 70 AD.
5. Knowledge had not increased a fraction of what it has in our era as Biblically predicted.
6. Men were not travelling to and fro speedily upon the whole earth as Biblically predicted in end times in 70 AD
7. The signs in the Heavens have increased . . . well . . . astronomically in variety, strangeness, frequency, drama, intensity MANY orders of magnitude well beyond the most dramatic anywhere near 70 AD
8. The degredation of the GLOBAL culture into lawlessness seriously akin to the days of Noah did not occur anything like it is now anywhere close to AD70. One can point to spheres of various outrages against morality including horrid violence etc. But such was not part of a WHOLE GLOBAL ETHOS as it is now with mass communication and media the way it is now.
9. The Gospel was not preached into ALL THE WORLD in 70AD and still has not been. But the group in Albuquerque working to get WINDUP MP3 PLAYERS into all the people groups without a Bibl estimates that they can have it done with MORE THAN 90% of the unreached people groups by 2016. THAT IS A MORE SERIOUS END TIMES TIME CLOCK BENCHMARK THAN ABOUT ANY OTHER that folks could come up with rom Scripture.
NOTE: THAT GROUP IS HOSANNA 2421 Aztec Road NE
Albuquerque, NM 87107-4200
Toll free 1 800 545 6552
www.fcbh.org
infofcbhmail.org
They have MP3 formatted CD's available for individuals in churches who wish to sponsor a new language. Each new language costs about $25,000.
The copyright holders of the NIV--THE INTERNATIONAL BIBLE SOCIETY are funding all the other costs of delivering the WINDUP MP3 PLAYERS etc. to the tribal people groups.
THE requirement of Hosanna is that the tribe designate THE PERSON OF PEACE in the tribe--i.e. the person most known and characterized AS A PERSON OF PEACE. Then, they contract with that person to receive a "Proclaimer"--the WINDUP MP3 player. And, the PERSON OF PEACE agrees to host a group meeting of listening to the dramatized NEW TESTAMENT for 30 minutes per week with 30 minutes of discussion following the listening.
The statistics show that reliably for every 10 Proclaimer's distributed--AT LEAST ONE NEW CHURCH IS SPONTANEOUSLY FORMED BY HOLY SPIRIT AMONGST THOSE LISTENING TO THE WORD OF GOD. And, the churches proceed to disciple folks with surprising healthiness "merely" by LISTENING TO THE WORD OF GOD WEEKLY. FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD. PTL.
This is but another END TIMES SIGN that had absolutely no parallel GLOBALLY in any other era but our own. Earlier such efforts in the last few hundred years have not come close to matching ours. And there was nothing remotely comparable in 70AD.
If you are speaking of the "second coming in AD70" preterists, then I agree. One needs to distinguish between the temporal judgment appearing of Jesus by the hand of Rome against apostate Israel, and the personal bodily appearing of Jesus at the end of this age.
One vine. One faith. One savior. One blood. One word. All one in Christ Jesus.
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AND
THAT SUCH SCRIPTURAL, SPIRITUAL TRUTHS
HAVE
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
--NOTHING--
To do with the descendants of Jacob being removed from God's Promise of Covenant keeping with Abraham . . .
and
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
to do with the descendants of Jacob missing out on the Biblically predicted prophetic promises to them and about them for the END TIMES ERA increasingly upon us in our era.
You don't think he's talking about the past do you?
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LOL. Isn't it a bit . . . . something . . . to tempt folks to mangle Scripture!??!
LOL.
You are ignoring Luke 21. All is clarified in Luke. Luke absolutely uses "this" in a future present sense just a few sentences earlier.
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Trying to confuse folks again with obvious Biblical facts? That's too easy on this topic, evidently! LOL.
It's clearly (and thankfully) the majority of Christians who rebuke your end-times scenario. Dispensationalism is very much a minority view within Christendom.
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Not so.
Pentecostals/Charismatics have or are rapidly becoming the largest block of Christians the world over . . . often spontaneously by Holy Spirit's exclusive doing without any outside intervention. And, interestingly, HE LEADS the folks into the vibrant expectancy of Our Lord's return in our era.
Perhaps Holland should notify Holy Spirit that He has it wrong? /sar.
Actually, no I didn't. But I don't expect you to see that since everything in the dispensational theology is race based.
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No, not from my perspective. That's not the point at all.
The POINT is GOD'S PROMISE TO ABRAHAM and the descendants of Promise. They COULD have been all those who drink water at the creek with their hands vs lapping like dogs. They could have been all those who were right handed. They could have been all those who liked popcorn without butter. But GOD HAPPENED TO CHOOSE TO COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM REGARDING CERTAIN OF HIS DESCENDANTS. THAT WAS GOD'S CHOICE. Not ours. We merely believe what GOD SAID.
I think it's well known
THAT . . . DRUM ROLL . . .
AS IN MOST THINGS . . .
CONTEXT . . . . C O N T E X T
IS VITALLY, CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT IN LINGUISTIC UNDERSTANDING.
And, as has been pointed out, the root word translated as "this" can as accurately or even more accurately be translated as "the same." IGNORING THOSE TWO FACTS does not help the silly notion that 70AD was the END TIMES era.
1. CONTEXT DETERMINES MEANING
2. "THIS" in that context and even per the root word meaning = "THE SAME" as in THE SAME GENERATION THAT BEGINS TO SEE SUCH THINGS COMET O PASS WILL SEE ALL OF THEM COME TO PASS.
SIMPLE.
So, Jesus was telling about the 33 AD present when He was delivering the Olivet Discourse.
Are you a new breed of preterist that can't even wait to get to 70AD?
I assume we'll hear from you that John wrote Revelation in 32AD???
Tell me, Dr. E, was Jesus talking about the future in the Olivet Discourse?
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ROTFLOL! LOL! TOOOOOOO TRUE!!!! TOOOOOO RICHLY TRUE!
ROTFLOL! WHAT A KNEE SLAPPER!
BRILLIANT.
Are the people arguing with you about Luke 21 trying to say that Jesus has already returned "in a cloud with power and great glory?"
Seems to me, they have to, if they think all of his prophesy there has to do with the generation of people extant at that time.
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DON'T YOU KNOW????
DIDN'T YOU GET THE MEMO???
Were you LEFT BEHIND????
OF COURSE JESUS RETURNED IN GREAT POWER AND GLORY in 33.2 AD.
Of course He had to transmorgify into a tiny little gnome to fit inside the narrow, rigid, tidy little boxes of the CONTRARIAN REPLACEMENTARIANS . . . but that was fine with them. They just stuffed Him in his tidy little box at the foot of Calvin's casket and have pontificated on a plenty as though nothing happened.
Apparently, this scares the bejeebers out of semi-preterists,
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I think you hit a very key nail squarely on the head.
1. It scares them to their bones because the implications are their whole pontificated theological house of cards could be suspect. That would be scarey to anyone, I think.
2. It scares them to think that they've been on th wrong side of God's Holy Word so seriously for so long.
3. It scares them to think that thay haven't begun to wrap their minds, lives, families around getting ready in all the ways they can for what might happen in our era relative to Biblical prophecies.
4. It scares them to their bone marrow to think that they might not be as brilliant, proudly perfect etc. as they've been telling the blokes in their mirrors all these decades that they are.
That is not in doubt by most Bible scholars.
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Please show me the solid, well constructed research study proving that
"most"
I'll be waiting.
Not is you take the immediate context in an unnatural way and ignore the rest of the Bible to boot.
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I find that assertion a great struggle to reach up to even 0.0005% true.
It sure is a wonder why any Christian would want to say, "I am a follower of {Paul, Apollos, Calvin, Luther, the Pope, whomever}" when we have the Word of God given so directly and so very, very painstakingly to us and the Holy Spirit to interpret for us.
Do you not remember why it was granted for Jews to once again have a homeland?
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EXCELLENT POINT.
SCRIPTURE IS QUITE CLEAR THAT AFTER THE DIASPORA OF 70AD, the gathering again of the descendants of Jacob to the Covenant lands would be at the time OF THE END TIMES.
Didn't happen until 1948. No amount of rubber Bible bouncing will change those facts.
Just a caveat:
Chickens pick on each other. Let's Christians make sure we're not so fowl.
Thanks Quix. The angels told us that "in like manner" as he ascended will he return.
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AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! GOD SAID IT. I BELIEVE IT. THAT SETTLES IT.
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Alternate interpretation . . . the angels had been smoking something funny and really meant that Christ would return in power and glory but hidden from the MSM and be quickly transmorgified into a tiny little gnome and stuffed into some tidy little boxes in Holland and buried under a big dike so He couldn't disrupt all the popular private interpretations that the true facts about His Return would upset if allowed to stand as plainly as Scripture published them.
/sar
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