Land Over Jesus and the Gospel

American Vision ^ | 7/25/2006 | Gary DeMar

[blue-duncan]

"Romans 11 does not say a thing that counters the other words, otherwise, the Bible would be inconsistent."

You are reading Romans 9-11 according to your eschatological system. There is no inconsistency in what Paul is writing. He is telling the church at Rome that Israel has been set aside until the church age is done and then Israel will be dealt with. Paul calls God's dealing with Israel a mystery.

In Rom. 11:25-27, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."

Now, if it was as clear cut that the church was now Israel why speak of "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"?

[Iscool]

Which is “good news,” the temporal land of Israel or the eternal life offered in the gospel? Hagee and his end-time associates have it wrong, dangerously wrong.

I'd say this guy's not all that bright, or he's dishonest...

If he knows anything, he knows this group he's referring to are Evangelicals...And if there was only one thing Evangelicals are noted for, it is their burden to 'witness' to the unsaved and get 'em saved...

And if he's got any brains at all, he would know that you can't witness to 'dead' Jews...So it's in our best interest to keep the Jews healthy...And that obviouisly includes helping them protect the land they live on...

[topcat54]

"There is a new covenant, and it means that the Jews are no longer God's Chosen People."

Nope friend. Sorry. Their calling is irrevocable.

If you read Paul in Romans and elsewhere very carefully, you will discover that the calling is irrevocable only as his Jewish brethren after the flesh come to saving faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ. All the Jews that have lived and died in the last 2000 years without believing in Jesus Christ are eternally lost. Their circumcision and lineage cannot save them.

"And do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones." (Matt. 3:9)

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." (Rom. 2:28,29)

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, 'In Isaac your seed shall be called.'" (Rom. 9:6,7)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:28,29)

Only those Jews after the flesh who profess their faith in the Messiah Jesus are called blessed along with Father Abraham. They share the faith of Abraham.

[topcat54]

Does God have two chosen people or one?

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

"Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." (Eph. 2:19-22)

Jews are God's chosen people only insofar as they express true faith in Messiah Jesus. Then they are individually regrafted into the root of faith (Rom. 11:23).

[ConservativeMind]

To further illustrate the circumstance, Jews who accepted Christ have fulfilled their destiny. That was true even of the Apostles. The Original Covenant held for them, they recognized the Truth in their promised King, the Son of God, and all was well with them. You see, they knew they were also a part of the New Covenant, which allowed Gentiles. The Jewish Apostles, and all other Jews who converted, are both part of the elect and are saved in all expected ways.

Gentiles can also accept Christ, whereas they were not a part of God's people before Christ.

So, both Jews and Gentiles can be a part of the New Covenant, with those same Jews being part of the Old one that required them to follow God and ultimately, the soon to come King, Jesus Christ.

Jews, at least those who may be alive at that time, if not resurrected ones, will again have a chance to follow God with Christ as their leader during a 1,000 year reign at the supposed "end of time".

So, the Old Covenant continues to apply to Jews, they just need to accept Jesus Christ and be a part of the New Covenant to be following God and make it to Heaven.

Gal. 3:26-29

Sons of God

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Your misunderstanding obscures the Good News of the Gospel and denies the genuine sorrow Paul felt for those Jews who did not believe in Jesus Christ..."

May I submit to you that the interpretation which seeks to replace Israel with the Church and erases Jewish Israel from God's future plans is doing far more damage to New Testament theology.

Almost always in the NT, Israel is to be viewed a the Jewish nation. Gentile Christians are grafted in to this olive tree - but should not boast (like they have supplanted the Jewish body). Salvation is of the Jews.

You are claiming that Israel is not "Israel" because of unbelief? Unbelieving Israel is STILL Israel.They may be "broken off" and - get this - not numbered among the "elect", but they can still be "grafted in" and they are still "Israel". Follow the red trail below to see what happens to "unelect" Israel.


I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer o­n the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

   

 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

   "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
   eyes that would not see
   and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day."

    And David says,

   "Let their table become a snare and a trap,
   a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
   and bend their backs forever."

   

Gentiles Grafted In

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion  mean!

   

 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

   

 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

   

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

 25Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

And as always, it's a pleasure trading posts with you!

[blue-duncan]

Two. Good night, see you tomorrow, Lord willing and He comes tonight.

[blue-duncan]

What is the Old Covenant and what is the New Covenant?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"If you read Paul in Romans and elsewhere very carefully, you will discover that the calling is irrevocable only as his Jewish brethren after the flesh come to saving faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ."

Agreed. The gifts and calling are irrevocable from God's side - but they can choose to walk away from those gifts and their calling.


"Only those Jews after the flesh who profess their faith in the Messiah Jesus are called blessed along with Father Abraham."

I disagree. Unbelieving Israel is still "Israel". See this post for details: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675292/posts?page=26#26

[topcat54]

That's too bad.

[topcat54]

Agreed. The gifts and calling are irrevocable from God's side - but they can choose to walk away from those gifts and their calling.

Then you would say they can unchoose to be chosen.

Unbelieving Israel is still "Israel".

But that counts for nothing, as I pointed out in detail with numerous Bible references. They fact that they may call themselves "Israel" does not change the fact that, apart from Christ, they are of their father the devil.

[topcat54]

Almost always in the NT, Israel is to be viewed a the Jewish nation. Gentile Christians are grafted in to this olive tree - but should not boast (like they have supplanted the Jewish body). Salvation is of the Jews.

Are gentiles grafted into the commonwealth of Israel and made to be full partakers in the covenant by virtue of the finished work of Jesus Christ?

Do gentile receive the circumcision made without hands, which is vastly superior to fleshly circumcision?

Are not those who worship God in the Spirit called the circumcision?

Are gentiles who profess faith in Christ just as much the children of Father Abraham as physical Jews?

Is the church not spoken of in "Jewish" terms (a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation) by the apostles esp. Peter in his first epistle?

Is the church not often referred to as the "new Jerusalem" in contrast to physical, earthly Jerusalem which is likened to those in bondage?

I think you need to read the NT a little more closely.

[topcat54]

"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.'" (Rom. 11:26,27)

How do you understand the phrase "all Israel" in this passage?

[ConservativeMind]

I don't have the time to explain as much of Christianity and its history as I would like. You will need to pull together other sources to teach you much, if you are not aware of such basic concepts. But I will try to help.

The "Old Covenant" core is based in the Ten Commandments and was applicable to Jews, God's only people at that early time. Jews were those who descended from Abraham, a man God loved. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be many.

At that time, what came to be the Jewish nation was a group of people who were basically one race (there was an occasional exception) and also one common Faith. It was a nation not bound by a border, but by its race and faith.

They were considered to have obeyed God and to be with Him if they followed the Ten Commandments and the additional laws put forth in Exodus 20-24, with the original Covenant (we now call the "Old" Covenant) being cemented in the beginning of 24. Some would say the Old Covenant included Exodus 25-31, so feel free to read further while others would say the Old Covenant was simply the Ten Commandments.

Prior to this Covenant, Faith was simple. You followed God with your heart, just as Abraham did. Abraham never even knew the Ten Commandments. His faith was so simple, but it was pure. The Jewish nation, Israel, had grown to complicate things. In essence, where elders knew what was right, they found the need to put into place rules so that the younger wild kids followed what was right. These rules took away from the heart, much like how laws today take away social pressure that once accomplished much the same thing. People grew to believe faith was simply following rules and not something that emanated from the heart for God.

God agreed that if Israel followed these new, somewhat self-imposed rules, that He would accept them as His people.

In essence, what God really wanted from His people was that sincere, child-like love and trust in Him again. What wound up happening was that Man was now seemingly incapable of that without rules. And forcing someone do something doesn't make them "like" it or desire it.

The Jews were told a King would come to fulfill their Covenant. That King was thought to be someone of great stature. However, we grew to know that the King was a lowly baby born in a manger whom we call Jesus.

The New Covenant both fulfilled the Old and abolished it, as per the references listed to you earlier. To now be with God and be with Him in Heaven, you had to realize His Son was that King and accept Him as such.

Two things come to my mind about this occasion. One, God allowed someone with the simplest faith and knowledge of Him to be saved. Two, He allowed Gentiles to be with Him, as His own people from before were spiteful and hate-filled and unaccepting of their King. So He fulfilled the Old Covenant by bringing a King to those Jews who could accept Him, and grafted into His 'saved' tree all Gentiles who accepted Him.

This New Covenant is based on accepting Jesus. There is no race or color, or no need to ever be a Jew from the Old Covenant. Even someone on his or her deathbed could conceivably come to Salvation and be in Heaven if they accepted Christ. It was now back to the very simple faith that Abraham once showed.

God wants our hearts to want long after Him. We should not need a "Ten Commandments" to follow in any explicit way--but if you truly love God, you will be following them anyway.

I hope this helps you better understand the circumstances around the Old and New Covenants.

To all, if I've misstated something, please correct me as you see fit.

[ConservativeMind]

Sleep well.

This thread is helping all of us learn.

[ConservativeMind]

Please read further down to the bottom of the thread. There are good details that will help you answer all of those questions.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Romans 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [melo hagoyim] be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Genesis 48:8-11

8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.
10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, so that he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.
11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.

>>>

Genesis 48:17-20

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations [melo hagoyim].
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Joseph is yet alive.

Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

[DaGman]

"There is a new covenant, and it means that the Jews are no longer God's Chosen People. Christians are"

Now, there's part of the problem. That is not true and the Bible is very clear on that.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Two.

Scripture for that one, b-d?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Unbelieving Israel is STILL Israel.

That directly contradicts Scripture. Or else who do you think Paul is referring to when he says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"?

Suicide bombers dressed as Jews?

And as always, it's a pleasure trading posts with you!

Ditto. 8~)