Why Do We Believe in the Trinity?

Catholic Exchange ^ | June 14, 2006 | Fr. Roger Landry

[Uri’el-2012]

I'll repeat: I do not seek to be Torah observant in order to be saved, but because I am saved, and I want to be like my Savior in every way. That includes eating only what He would eat.

Amen

b'shem Y'shua

[Uri’el-2012]

I distinguish between "Kashrut or kosher" and what is written in the Holy Word of G-d.

b'shem Y'shua

[1000 silverlings]

We know Jesus did on occasion eat with Gentiles, so we really don't know what all he did eat.

[DouglasKC]

I distinguish between "Kashrut or kosher" and what is written in the Holy Word of G-d.

As do I. Much of the "kosher" rules are stringent standards established by Jewish tradition. God's word doesn't go that far in that it essentially says to refrain eating only certain types of animal flesh.

[HarleyD]

I am personally ambivalent in regard to keeping kosher or keeping a saturday sabbath.

To be honest, so am I. If someone wishes to forgo fish on Fridays or ham, it doesn't make any difference to me. I'm just interested in the motivation and the reasoning behind such behavior-for which there doesn't seem to be a clear answer.

It's important to recognize that dietary law was one of the largest area of contention within the early church of which the apostles had a great deal to say at the very first Council. It isn't a triffling matter to simply sweep it under the carpet. The Jerusalem Council could have reached a "compromised" and simply say, "Well, each to their own." They didn't.

Tithing and fasting are not sacrifices in my mind. There isn't anything that we have that has not been given to us so we can't be "sacrificing" something. All these things belong to God. Giving back the things of God is one way in which we acknowledge that they belong to God. Besides, God is far more interested in our obedient than He is in our sacrifices.

[HarleyD]

In any case, there have always been commands that were optional, commands which were only manditory for certain sets of people, and commands which were relaxed out of mercy for Gentiles.

Excuse me??? If a Gentile became a Jew, such as Ruth, they were required to live by the covenantal laws. Ruth wasn't granted any special favors. Nor was Caleb for that matter. The examples you pointed out such as the priests, are people who were in positions of authority. The Bible lays out strict guidelines for deacons and elders. That doesn't give a group of people one set of rules and someone else another. Selling meat to non-believers has nothing to do with giving one set of rules to Jews and one to Gentiles.

What your statement really implies is that Gentiles are incapable of living to the same standards as the Jews. You are living to the law. If memory serves me correctly you are a Gentile that converted to a "Messianic Jew". This would make me wonder how is it you find yourself capable of living to this higher standard when other Gentiles cannot?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Tithing and fasting are not sacrifices in my mind. There isn't anything that we have that has not been given to us so we can't be "sacrificing" something. All these things belong to God. Giving back the things of God is one way in which we acknowledge that they belong to God. Besides, God is far more interested in our obedience than He is in our sacrifices.

I agree, and I think Scripture supports that view.

Life is short and we only have so much time and effort and energy. By God's grace, Christ was born and died on the cross as the ONLY sacrifice that matters. It really seems to demean Christ's single and perfect sacrifice to say ANY further sacrifices are necessary, or even commendable. Protestants never viewed "sacrifices" as anything other than misdirection, like the RC practice of no-meat on Friday or self-flaggelation.

We tithe not as a sacrifice, but in order to help our fellow man. It is charity, not penance.

And fasting is not a sacrifice. Fasting, according to much in the New Testament, helps us to meditate and pray more effectively for OUR OWN welfare. It is for OUR benefit, not for the benefit of God.

Christ is a positive, not a negative. He is progress, not regression. He is fulfillment, not withdrawal.

I think the Puritans got it right. EVERYTHING needs to be focused on Christ alone. His sacrifice, His resurrection, His atonement, His justification of fallen sinners who are utterly incapable of doing anything to redeem themselves.

Jesus Himself tells us that a new world has been ushered in by with His ministry which fulfills all prophecy, leaving the old ways moot. The old ways have fulfilled their purpose, and now the only purpose is Christ.

"And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better." -- Luke 5:36-39

So Christ tells us not to repair the old cloth, but to discard it in favor of the new cloth. And Christ tells us we are to put the new wine of Christ into a new bottle because clearly, the old is NOT better.

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom" -- Matthew 27:51

"And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." -- Mark 15:38

"And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." -- Luke 23:45

Christ has ripped the world apart into two entities -- the redeemed and the unredeemed.

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Tithing is a sacrifice. Fasting is a sacrifice. You are giving up something for the glory of God.

I thought so too until I went back to Scripture and saw that this is not the case. These things are to be done to help our fellow man and to make us more devoted Christians. But they are not sacrifices. They are instructions.

All human sacrifices are the same as giving up meat on Fridays or living the cloistered life of monks. None of them is worth a wit because Christ has nullified ALL of them by HIS sacrifice.

The deceptive thing about sacrifices is that they are done to glorify the creature and not the Creator. We sacrifice things in our attempt to "better" ourselves or elevate ourselves in God's eyes by our denial. But none of that is what matters. We glorify God by our actions -- by our proclamation of the Gospel, by our charity to others, by our devotion to His word.

There is only one sacrifice that matters and it is not our own. It is all of Christ.

[xzins]

Didn't you argue with me over fasting on this same subject the other day?

It's to glorify God.


It doesn't suddenly turn us into little spiritual whirlwinds with insights into the machinations of the universe.

Fasting (and prayer)...and sacrifice... is not for us. It's for glorifying God.

[Victoria Delsoul]

I apologize to you if you were offended by my "Plato" comment. I also apologize to Victoria.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[P-Marlowe]

FWIW, the word Disciple is derived from discipline.

dis·ci·pline (ds-pln)

n.

1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.

2. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.

Yes it does benefit us, whether that is our intention or not. If it is done to the Glory of God it cannot help but benefit us.

If we resist the temptation to eat food during a fast, this will enable us to more easily reist other temptations that come to us outside our control. If we learn to give freely to God we will be more likely to give freely to men. While we are to do it to the glory of God, there will be spiritual rewards which come from it. Any time we give glory to God we reap rewards.

[P-Marlowe]

I thought so too until I went back to Scripture and saw that this is not the case. These things are to be done to help our fellow man and to make us more devoted Christians. But they are not sacrifices. They are instructions.

You musta missed this scripture:

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:15-16 KJV)

[HarleyD]

FWIW, the word Disciple is derived from discipline.

Discipleship is training-not sacrificing. You will find more mileage with the "sacrifice of praise" then you will with training. That is because the ONLY thing we can offer to God is our praise. Everything else comes from God.

If we resist the temptation to eat food during a fast, this will enable us to more easily reist other temptations that come to us outside our control.

And right here is the problem with this whole thing. If we resist this will enable us to... Where precisely are we depending on the Lord? We are solely dependent upon Christ our Lord, day by day, through all circumstances. Without Christ, we can do nothing.

[HarleyD]

I thought so too until I went back to Scripture and saw that this is not the case.

Same here. A quick search of the New Testament will show we really do not sacrifice anything to God. It is God who takes care of us.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'm glad you referenced Hebrews because there's no book of Scripture which more clearly explains how the old has given way to the new.

To offer prayers as a form of "sacrifice" is consistent with giving our time and energy to God in prayer. But it is in no way a "sacrifice" of food or dietary restriction or ceremony or holidays.

And that's the "sacrifice" of this discussion.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Yes it does benefit us, whether that is our intention or not. If it is done to the Glory of God it cannot help but benefit us.

Everything God instructs us to do benefits us. Everything. That's one of the perks of being among His flock. All things work for our welfare.

When we really stop to realize what this means, it's awesome indeed. God has planned everything, the good and the bad, for our benefit -- to strengthen us, to instruct us, to protect us, to correct us, to love us. I think we are loved more than we can ever imagine or articulate.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

In post 445, you wrote...

The intent of any fast is not for the benefit of the faster, imho. It doesn't make him/her more spiritual, insightful, holy, etc.

I answered...

Fasting is for the benefit of the faster. It can bring us closer to God, as in prayer.

"Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." -- 1 Corinthians 7:5

But this is very different from special dietary laws which Christ says he abolished.

You then said that fasting was to gloify God.

How does fasting glorify God? That is straight from no-meat-on-Friday territory. We're not to make sacrifices at the altar and we're not to keep any dietary laws and we're not to celebrate holidays which no longer pertain to Christians.

That's the point of Hebrews.

Our new birth has released us from all these restrictions. We are free in Christ who performed the ONLY sacrifice necesssary for our salvation.

[xzins]

"Whether therefore ye eat or drink or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

That pretty much says it all.

Fasting is not designed to make me into SuperSwami of Christian Theology.

Fasting shows God we're serious about Him. "Neither have I gone back from the commandments of His lips. I have esteemed the words of His mouth more than my necessary food."

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

[Buggman]

Buggman, however, has chosen a path that limits his July 4, barbeque to plain hamburgers, beef short ribs and Hebrew National hot dogs.

Mmm . . . Hebrew Nationals. *drools*

[Buggman]

I distinguish between "Kashrut or kosher" and what is written in the Holy Word of G-d.

Ditto.