Posted on 05/19/2006 5:51:33 PM PDT by fishtank
Oh, grow up, all of you. Shame on you for the bitchery that your initially reasoned and thought-out arguements descended into.
I'm sorry, but having a Protestent discourse about an organization he never belonged to, especially when that organization is part of a faith that resembles his own only on the most superficial of levels? You'd be better off asking a child to describe the roof of the Sistine Chapel.
Sure we can! Who was teaching the world about Christianity long before the "Once Saved Always Saved" group came along? Where were the Calvinists before the 16th century? After all, it is they who started that doctrine. That belief didn't EXIST before the 16th century.
Are you God that you can declare yourself in Heaven before you stand in judgement? Are you better than St. Paul who said that he too could be considered a castaway?
This illumination in Scripture proves that one can lose their salvation:
"For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.
For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
The Roman Catholic church was burning people at the stake for believing it if that is what you mean.
Even Opus Dei admitted to some of the cult-type practices: isolation from friends and family, handing over most of your income, the self torture (pain is good) constant prayers and rituals and intense training (programming) (these are mind control methods used by cults - (Islam being one of the biggest - playing stink bug with your nose to the ground and butt in the air 5 x's a day upon the signal, is to keep the mind in line - along with every aspect of your life controlled and dictated).
Now if Point 1, point 2, point 3 and point 4 are admitted, even from the group...then why would it be hard to wonder if point 5 followed?The segment will be on the History Ch again and on Nat' Geographic. Many Catholics were unaware of the very quietly held sect within the church.
One might also wonder...if the church is the end all of churches, God's emissary on earth...why does it need secret societies also...
They pretend, now that their existence is more exposed, that they are simply a bunch of people, more spiritual than others, that commune together for that reason.
Hmmm. Does one need a secret society for this? Would the church fund (they are worth billions) such a group for such a simple reason, something any 'pious' catholic could practice without the need of a separate, secretive, controlled group?
Or might one have reason to suspicion they perform other functions?
Are you God in Heaven that you can earn your own salvation and spit in the face of the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ?
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The price for salvation was paid ONCE. No one can be re-saved unless Christ must DIE AGAIN.
And, if you are of the mind that you can earn your own salvation, then I guess you really can't call yourself a Christian.
Yeah, like fleecing the flock and turning out spies like Robert Hanssen?
(from the Opus Dei web site: "Some of the celibate members of Opus Dei use the cilice. It's a small, light, metal chain with little prongs worn around the thigh. The cilice is uncomfortable--it's supposed to be--"
they said themselves that one doesn't even get to the first inner levels until after 6 years - so if you didn't get into the the upper layers - indeed the very upper layer - you may not have a clue what goes on at that level.
The lower levels in these kinds of secret groups, are more like a baby crawling. The lower levels are for screening and for BEING a smoke screen - (and contributions don't hurt either - OD is worth billions) - only the chosen few would reach and be trusted with the ultimate raison d'etre of their organization.
There are always folk who need to feel wanted and important and to whom a little attention and 'caring' can ensnare them into an unhealthy situation.
The founder of Opus Dei compiled 999 "counsels," for the members to use throughout the day for prayer. When would one have time to study the Bible and Jesus's teachings?
The History program showed some of these Dei's 999 precepts for the organization - sent a chill up my spine. Jim Jones came to mind....
Who ever said that Catholics could earn their own salvation except people like you who don't seem to know what the heck they are talking about when it comes to Catholicism.
Interesting that you didn't answer my question. Guess that you can't, can you?
I will ask it again. Are you God that you can declare yourself in Heaven before you stand before God Almighty? You won't know if you're guaranteed entrance into Heaven until Jesus Christ says to you, "Welcome into my Kingdom, good and faithful servant!"
You think you can pull one line from Hebrews and prove once saved, always saved? Come on.. the author of Hebrews, St. Paul, said EVEN he could become a castaway! Okay, want to use Hebrews as an example to back your claim? I can use one passage from Hebrews that will destroy OSAS. Here it is:
"For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come
And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery." Hebrews 6:46
There are even arguments between Protestant denominations about the validity of OSAS. The Methodists don't believe it. The Pentecostals say it's heresy. The Lutherans don't teach it, neither do the Episcopalians.
An example to see the divisions among you.
So my friend, which denomination is right? Is it the ones that believe in OSAS or is it the ones who don't? If it is the ones who believe in OSAS, are the ones who don't, i.e., the majority of Christiandom, doomed to Hell?
Ah... good sir, you have hoist yourself on your own petard. Indeed, John Calvin had his good friend Michael Servetus killed for not buying into Calvinism. Heck, he had the whole of Geneva under fear of his tyranny! Ever heard of the Calvinist police who pulled people out of their homes and beaten for not living up to his unholy standards?
A little quote from Calvin about Servetus you might find interesting: "Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that(they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt."
right - I had forgotten about Hanssen.
In a review of the book: Spy : The Inside Story of How the FBI's Robert Hanssen Betrayed America , a reviewer comments:
"Opus Dei's prelature even stepped in to urge Hanssen's wife not to make no statements about her husband since that might delay its founder's elevation to sainthood by John Paul II."
The book is quite an eye opener on some other big DC names who are/were members of Opus Dei
Some are mentioned in this review on AMazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375758941/104-9434451-8857530?v=glance&n=283155
Methinks there could be more than one book exploring the secrets and connections of Opus Dei - some long tentacles into the halls of power in the world
Then how can you lose it?
How do you get Christ back up on the cross every time you need to be re saved?
I am a joint heir with Christ. I come boldly before the throne.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Louie Freeh was Opus Dei.
Also, now that the founder of the Legionaries has been censored by the new Pope, Opus Dei is poised to take it's place.
Sistine Chapel DrawingPrecedent:
Proceed to the Renaissance. Broaden perspective of making art by showing the process can exist even in different positions
Visual Aids: Pictures of Sistine Chapel ceiling, scaffolding.Materials:
• large pieces of paper•
tape•
pencils, No. 2 and colored1.
Tape paper to undersides of tables, desks (preferably on the low side).
2. Have kids draw and color on their backs.
Mural PaintingBackground – Diego Rivera,
Michaelangelo,
memorials
Large pieces of white paper
Tempera paints
Paint brushes
Instructions:
1. Have student decide what the mural is going to be about.
Let them delegate eachother to different jobs for the mural
2. Give them paint and paint brushes.
So they don't use the cilice for 6 years, and then only some of the ones who have made it to the upper layer, "the very upper layer". So no one is forced to use it then. Great. It's a free country, different strokes for different folks I guess.
The lower levels in these kinds of secret groups, are more like a baby crawling. The lower levels are for screening and for BEING a smoke screen - (and contributions don't hurt either - OD is worth billions)
I really doubt they are worth "billions". Did they offer any proof of that? They run a lot of schools, especially trade schools in the third world, so maybe those have some value, but "billions"?, doubt it.
There are always folk who need to feel wanted and important and to whom a little attention and 'caring' can ensnare them into an unhealthy situation.
True. Point being? You said in the first paragraph that they make people wait 6 years before they let them join. And ODAN's website admits people can leave whenever they want. Making people wait 6 years before allowing people to join seems very sober.
The founder of Opus Dei compiled 999 "counsels," for the members to use throughout the day for prayer. When would one have time to study the Bible and Jesus's teachings?
They do. They have to read the Bible every day - at least 15 minutes a day, as well as hearing the readings at daily mass. Also, a lot of the counsels ARE Bible verses. Counsels isn't the right word either. They are meditations.
The History program showed some of these Dei's 999 precepts for the organization - sent a chill up my spine. Jim Jones came to mind....
The History Channel isn't the best source for information on religion. They show some awfully offensive stuff every Easter and Christmas. I wouldn't trust them for this either.
I"ll just bother with one correction - either my writing wasn't clear - or your reading wasn't - I didn't say they didn't use the cilice for 6 years - but now you bring it up , they said - on TV - they they "only use it 2 hours a day, except Sunday."
Golly gee, then, nothing to wonder about
have a good night
I believe I have shown you passages from Scripture that show you can lose it. That one from Hebrews was very strong. There are many others that I could share. Maybe this one from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself might help:
"But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." St. Matthew 24:13
I believe that passage is obvious to its meaning. You must stay the course despite opposition or difficulty, without constant backsliding, and you must prove yourself worthy to stand before God. Our Lord says so Himself:
"Watch ye, therefore, praying at all times, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to come, and to stand before the Son of man." St. Luke 21:36
So God aborts you from the new brth?
Secret oaths are forbidden in Catholicism.
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