Posted on 05/19/2006 5:51:33 PM PDT by fishtank
Again, the warning is: discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.
No one else is to blame for your suspension. No one else ignored me.
To avoid problems in the future, pause before pressing the “post” button. Consider the wording, whether it is discussing an issue at arms length or whether the wording makes it personal tussle, a “you v me” confrontation which incites flaming back and forth.
Or meditate on Jude 1:3 and 2 Timothy 2:24-26 together.
For more on the Religion Moderator's guidelines, click on my profile page.
Some would see that as a virtue. Others not, like Greg Bahnsen whose comment I'm swiping from Topcat's homepage...
"Rome has not essentially changed. Rome declared that what it said at the time of the Reformation was infallible and could not change. Declared it to be irreformible truth. Rome has not changed and precious truths of God's word are still worth upholding even at the cost of unity even at the cost of being considered "troublemakers" in the religious world. We need to guard the antithesis against the destructive error of Rome." Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen - From a tape, THE REFORMATION, October 28, 1990."The Reformation is dying daily in our day when the Ecumenical Movement, and other forces like unto it, wish to soften the antithesis with Rome, today. I want to assure you that it's not my pugnacious debating nature that makes me say we must exalt that antithesis and guard it. It's my love for the Lord Jesus Christ and the purity of His word.
....Before offering Himself up as a spotless victim upon the altar, Christ prayed to His Father for all who believe in Him: "that they all may be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me".[3] In His Church He instituted the wonderful sacrament of the Eucharist by which the unity of His Church is both signified and made a reality. He gave His followers a new commandment to love one another,[4] and promised the Spirit, their Advocate,[5] who, as Lord and life-giver, should remain with them forever.
After being lifted up on the cross and glorified, the Lord Jesus poured forth His Spirit as He had promised, and through the Spirit He has called and gathered together the people of the New Covenant, who are the Church, into a unity of faith, hope and charity, as the Apostle teaches us: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one Baptism".[6] For --`"all you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus".[7] It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the Church as a whole, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful. He brings them into intimate union with Christ, so that He is the principle of the Church's unity. The distribution of graces and offices is His work too, [8] enriching the Church of Jesus Christ with different functions "in order to equip the saints for the work of service, so as to build up the body of Christ".[9]
In order to establish this His holy Church everywhere in the world till the end of time, Christ entrusted to the College of the Twelve the task of teaching, ruling and sanctifying.[10] Among their number He selected Peter, and after his confession of faith determined that on him He would build His Church. Also to Peter He promised the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[11] and after His profession of love, entrusted all His sheep to him to be confirmed in faith[12] and shepherded in perfect unity.[13] Christ Jesus Himself was forever to remain the chief cornerstone[14] and shepherd of our souls.[15]
Jesus Christ, then, willed that the apostles and their successors the bishops with Peter's successor at their head should preach the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments, and rule the Church in love. It is thus, under the action of the Holy Spirit, that Christ wills His people to increase, and He perfects His people's fellowship in unity: in their confessing the one faith, celebrating divine worship in common, and keeping the fraternal harmony of the family of God.
The Church, then, is God's only flock; it is like a standard lifted high for the nations to see it:[16] for it serves all mankind through the Gospel of peace[17] as it makes its pilgrim way in hope toward the goal of the fatherland above.[18]
This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, the Holy Spirit energizing its various functions. It is a mystery that finds its highest exemplar and source in the unity of the Persons of the Trinity: the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit, one God.
3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,[19] which the Apostle strongly condemned.[20] But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.
The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church- whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church--do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,[21] and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.[22]
So, yes, Sister, I consider you a Christian. .
BTTT
This is almost exactly the same story that happened to a close family member of mine.
Thanks.
Where can I read about the Jesuits and William of Orange?
Which doesn't answer my challenge, which was (you recall): Do you have the slightest evidence that Opus Dei encouraged Hanssen's spying or excused it in the slightest?
Besides, it sounds a lot like hearsay evidence.
Of course not, because you just say they're "not really Christians" or "not truly saved", and thus you get yourself off the hook for, e.g., Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter. Very, very convenient.
Saying that the "function" of Opus Dei is to produce spies and fleece people is not unjust?
Basically, there's a sizeable group of "Christians" here who believe that no accusation and no slander against Catholics in general or Opus Dei in particular is ever unjust.
Because, frankly, they hate us passionately.
Which simply goes to show that Jesus knew what he was talking about.
‘Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven; this is how they persecuted the prophets before you.'
I want to believe Opus Dei is a good organization. I know a few people who are members, and they have given me a good impression.
Steadfastconservative's account above in post #126 has credibility that ODAN often doesn't have, in my opinion. What do you say in response?
Telling someone "you have a vocation to thus-and-such" is out of bounds. That's something they ultimately have to determine for themselves in prayer and consultation with spiritual advisors (not high-pressure salesmen, spiritual advisors).
Telling someone "you have a vocation to thus-and-such, and may go to hell unless you obey it" is way, way, far out-of-bounds. Anyone who has that line tried on them needs to run fast in the opposite direction, no matter who's giving it to them.
If the story is accurate, that kind of high-pressure stuff is far from being in Opus Dei's best interests, because it ends up making numeraries out of people who poor sales resistance and low self-esteem, instead of an authentic vocation.
Ping to post #153
"What do you say in response?"
I would say Opus Dei is not for everyone, and that people struggle with making life-long commitments. Any religious order will have people who have bad experiences. That's a part of life when you are taliking about institutions managed by human beings.
Same with the armed forces. My brother was pressured a lot to stay in the Navy and sign up for another stint. He didn't want to so he left when his tour was over.
A life in the Navy wasn't the right fit for my brother. But he doesn't go around saying bad things about the Navy.
No, Opus Dei is not for everyone. Unfortunately, Opus Dei does not allow those whom it wishes to recruit as numeraries to make an informed, free choice about this vocation. If Opus Dei were honest and up front about this unusual and very rigid type of religious vocation, that would be fine. But they aren't. They even deny that they are a religious order when numeraries clearly live as religious. Most religious orders do not want to admit people who do not have a real vocation to their kind of religious life. But Opus Dei does and it doesn't care what bad effects it has on the individual. They deceived and manipulated my son into thinking he had to become a numerary even though he did not want to live that kind of life. My son's only fault in all of this was in believing all of the BS that Opus Dei dishes out to its unsuspecting recruits. Thankfully, he came to his senses and left the order.
I honestly did not see that. I had a lot of posts going on different threads and didn't see the ping.
Please let me say in my defence, I was not speaking personally of anyone. But yet several people did of me. Were they suspended also?
BTW, thanks for taking the time to reply.
BTW, I am not a SBC, but if I was, I would tell you that as far as I can tell by reading their comments, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter do not believe what the SBC claims to believe.
But Jimmy sure did fool a lot of people, that's for sure.
I agreed that they might have a different function than what meets the eye.
Taking all of people's income? Not telling anyone what they do with the money? I rightly call that fleecing the flock.
Whether or not they "produced" the spy that was responsible for the assassination of at least 10 American agents is up for discussion.
But his very in-depth relationship with Opus Dei shows that it certainly had no effect on him morally.
And we do know that higher ups in Opus Dei pressured his wife not to talk about him/it so as not to delay the Pope declaring the founder of Opus Dei to be a saint.
Not a very pretty picture.
And then, last but not least, we have the testimony of people who were rescued from Opus Dei, including Freepers family members.
Taking all those things into consideration and discussing them does not make anyone guilty of "hate" and it is WRONG and SINFUL for people to claim otherwise.
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