The Book of Mormon Challenge

Joseph Smith America Prophet ^ | 2006

[colorcountry]

Yes Delphi, you have been forthright in your answers. I'm not sure restornu has. By her quoting of the Bible, it appears that Mormon beliefs fall in line with Christian beliefs, as far as the nature of God and if we can progress to that point goes.

I think that approach is "less than fully honest." You may not agree with me however.

Again, I've said my intention is to point out what I believe the Bible says and show discrepancies with Mormon belief. If that "muddies the waters," then so be it. I think investigators are entitled to the truth - the whole truth. Not just the line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept truth.

[DelphiUser]

Yep, one "God" the God of this world Jesus Christ, and in his Father, and in the holy ghost, I seem to remeber also posting a link to the Articles of faith for clarification.

I need to go soon too, so TTYL

[restornu]

i wish you stop trying to impugn my statments

I used the scripture as a witness to what I say!

[DelphiUser]

>>I think investigators are entitled to the truth - the
>>whole truth. Not just the line-upon-line, precept-upon-
>>precept truth.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but we do get to the "Whole Truth" as you call it, just not as fast as you would want us to.

My opinion is that to teach you have to start with what people know, then lead them to what they don't, Kind of like paul when he started teaching from the point of the Statue to the "Unknown God", worked for him...

Thank you for the right to disagree :-D

I still like the mental picture of a two month old with a steak, maybe that's just my twisted since of humor.

I gotta go, wifes a callin'

[DelphiUser]

I gotta go, I'll come back later and see if anyone has more Q's for me.

DelphiUser

[colorcountry]

We will never become the GOD of this world. That place belongs to Jehova (Christ). Elohim (God) is the God of Jesus Christ and also of us. Perhaps Elohim God also had a God, but that is not entirely clear in Mormon doctrine as I understand it.

Mormons believe that we will become gods over our own worlds, of our own creation. We will start them from our family units (If we are married in the Temple). So the man will be a god, the woman the wife of god...or heavenly mother, and they will have children and continue bearing children into eternity. This is the "plan of salvation" and "eternal progress." You can look those terms up on either of the sites previously mentioned.

BTW, technically, I am still a Mormon because I have not been excommunicated and I haven't officially "quit" or had my membership revoked. So I am neither an ex-mormon or an anti-mormon. I am an unbelieving mormon.

[restornu]

Again, I've said my intention is to point out what I believe the Bible says and show discrepancies with Mormon belief. If that "muddies the waters," then so be it. I think investigators are entitled to the truth - the whole truth. Not just the line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept truth

****

No that is not what muddy the water

it is how the question present in a shock jock matter!

Things of the Spirit need to be witness by the Spirit not spin by the opposition!

[restornu]

I am sure if you were being honest what you are doing and that you are now Calvinist....

I pray some day the prodical daughter returns.....

[andysandmikesmom]

Well, many here have provided me with lots of information, and answers to my questions....and now it would be up to me, to read, think, meditate, and pray, about all that I have seen and read and heard today....

[DelphiUser]

>>We will never become the GOD of this world. That place
>>belongs to Jehova (Christ). Elohim (God) is the God of
>>Jesus Christ and also of us.

Didn't I state this earlier?

>>Perhaps Elohim God also had a God, but that is not entirely clear in Mormon doctrine
>>as I understand it.

It is Clear, God became a God the Same way we will (if we do), it’s a system

You really don't understand the doctrine, so don't teach it.

Please anyone reading this Go to http://www.LDS.org this doctorine is WRONG!
(I can see why you left if this is what you thought)

>>BTW, technically, I am still a Mormon because I have not been excommunicated and I
>>haven't officially "quit" or had my membership revoked. So I am neither an ex-
>>mormon or an anti-mormon. I am an unbelieving mormon.

Then you are breaking Covenants and it would be better for you if you had your name removed from the roles. With You name removed at least you are not condemning yourself by breaking your covenants.

My Dad Taught me a saying when I was a kid, If your steal for me, you’ll steal from me.
If you are breaking covenants with God (Whether or not you believe that the church is true), who can believe you here?

My Father was a Mason before he joined the LDS Church, He still won’t tell me about what happened in there, and it’s been over forty years. I have always been able to take him at his word, I only hope I will be as well thought of.

[colorcountry]

It is Clear, God became a God the Same way we will (if we do), it’s a system You really don't understand the doctrine, so don't teach it.

Dephi, I WAS trying to give you the benefit of the doubt since President Gordon B. Hinckley went on record as stating on whether the LDS Church holds that, "God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain, ‘I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it ... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it,’" Hinckley told Time.

That you would accuse me of being unknowledgeable is disengenious. You know that I know.

You have already accused me on this thread of trying to hide the fact that I used to be a Mormon. I just wanted to lay all the cards on the table. What is it that you would call me? Apostate?

I am not breaking any covenant...none exists with a false religion or a God who is a god, but not the only god.

[Big Guy and Rusty 99]

dumb dumb, dumb dumb

[bonfire]

http://www.bcmmin.org/evolut4.html

I found this link very interesting in comparing Christianity/Bible with The Book of Mormon and revelations of J.Smith. One excerpt:

---

Joseph Smith at the April 1844 general conference taught that the Father was once a man like us before becoming a God.

- God an Exalted Man --- I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear,...God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...you would see him like a man in form ­­ like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man;...it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity(5). I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see....(April 1844, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 345; History of the Church 6:305)

[colorcountry]

Good link. The reference is also one that the Church recognizes as "official." You have to be careful of that. They must be "official sources."

It is strage however, that they keep referring us to www.fairlds.org and farms.byu.edu when it plainly states on those websites that these two sources are not "officially" recognized as representative of LDS beliefs.

[bonfire]

I have a question: THere is the book of Mormon, D&C......and what else is considered set in stone? Because so much of what Mormon's believe is NOT in the BOM, does it come from subsequent revelations of J.Smith? ie) God was once a man.

[DelphiUser]

>>Dephi, I WAS trying to give you the benefit of the doubt...

Fine, I'll take all of that I can get (Grin)

>>You have already accused me on this thread of trying to
>>hide the fact that I used to be a Mormon.

No, I said *I* was not aware of it, I said nothing about you hiding anything, and since you volunteered it, why would I say you were hiding it?

>>You know that I know.

I only you by what you post.. so Honestly, I don't know what you don't know, I don't know what I don't know so how could I know what you don't know if I don't know, you know?

(Big Big Grin, you Know?)

>>What is it that you would call me? Apostate?

Misguided, maybe even bitter and vindictive (since I called you that before it would be disingenuous not to admit I might call you that, although I think I might know you a little better now and probably would not.)

>> I am not breaking any covenant...none exists with a
>>false religion or a God who is a god, but not the only god.

You gave your word to keep the commandments of the church, whether it be to the devil himself, you should keep your word, or take the no penalty exit clause in the contract. To do anything else makes you dishonest, and frankly lessens your credibility.

[DelphiUser]

>>You have to be careful of that. They must be "official sources."

This is why I try to stay with the LDS.org site as I have been called on the carpet by other Mormons (who'd a thunk) for using "UnOfficial" sources.

Anything a General Authority (GA) says that is printed in a church publication (books, Magazines, pamphlets) is considered "Revelation". The I heard that someone over heard somebody say that his brother's uncles cousin heard... some GA’s name said “something” is sometimes heard in meetings.

My personal feeling is, if you weren’t either a first person, or have it in writing, don’t bring it up, look it up.

My $.02

[restornu]

CC I have shared with you just a few days ago that pres. Hinckley was not living at the time this knowledge was given so his word would be accurate !

Don Lattin (religion editor, interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1)

Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs [and other Christian churches]. For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?

Hinckley: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about. [emphasis added] >{? Q: So you're saying the church is still struggling to understand this?

Hinckley: Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly. We believe that the glory of God is intelligence and whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the Resurrection. ...that's one thing that's different. Modern revelation. We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, we believe he has yet to reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Gordon B. Hinckley, as quoted in Time Magazine, Aug 4, 1997:

"On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, [Hinckley] sounded uncertain, `I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it.'" [emphasis added]

A spokesman for Hinckley, when questioned about the accuracy of the Time quotation, asserted that Hinckley's words were taken out of context, and that Hinckley was thus misquoted. The Time reporter, however, has made available the pertinent part of the transcript of his interview with Hinckley. Here is the relevant excerpt from President Hinckley's interview with Time:

Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follett discourse by the Prophet.

Hinckley: Yeah

Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?

Hinckley: I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it. [emphasis added]

Here we read that even Wilford Woodruff who was the Last apostle to know Joseph Smith stating in his last testamony there are many things he does not understand

[restornu]

There is a great different when the many anti LDS site love to distort and mislead so it is so convoluted no one can untangle or make heads or tails of it!

These sites FAIR and FARMS are Scholars who have studies and debated with other apologist and in their rebuttal even as here the rebuttals that you think we can give, many of their sources are more accurate and fair and let the chips fall where they may that is more than I can say for the opposite sources who try to fuddge!

I think the reason many don't like FAIR and FARMS because in their summary is also inclued facts or accurate circumstances to back it up!

They take the Sting out of Shock Jock methods!

UG see post 218

[DelphiUser]

Interesting, notice president Hinckley talks about it not being publicly discussed

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse."

President Hinckley does not say that it's not true; he just de-emphasizes it because he knows it can cause those who don't know enough to stumble.

Well said, if you are trying to tell the truth without giving meat before milk, but I'll bet CC won't like it.