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Locked on 04/28/2006 7:28:28 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Toxic thread turned personal |
Posted on 04/25/2006 6:19:21 PM PDT by Full Court
Your post proves that Cloud is guilty of slander and must be admonished for it. He is proving how unfit he is for the office he has in God's Church. Cloud may find himself replaced in the near future if he does not repent.
make that "fatal error"
You have questioned Brother David Cloud, and have thus earned eternal damnation! Infidel! Heretic! Apostate!
You will be stoned to death (as a sign of God's love for you) immediately after the snake-handling service, so wear your Sunday best.
;)
When Mr. Graham says that the fires of HEll are not real, that infant baptism saves and that pagan people do not have to believe in Jesus to be saved, why would you attack Missionary CLoud for reporting those things?
There are completely anti-biblical, yet it is Biblical to report and warn about false teachings.
FYI, I didn't have to read any further than Cloud saying that Graham didn't preach "Salvation is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ", because that is a lie from the pit of Hell!!I have watched his Crusades for many, many, years, and I KNOW he says that when he gives the invitation because, I've heard him say it!!
You want to talk about "Doctrine" so let's do that right here and now! I've read the Bible several times, and IF I saw him, or anyone else, give false doctrine, I would CEASE watching that person, IMMEDIATELY, and I would talk to 'THAT PERSON' about it, instead of trying to embarrass and discredit them!! IF that person ignored the reproof, I would have taken another Christian back to talk to him. IF he kept on sinning, then I would have taken the entire church back to correct him. At THAT POINT, IF he kept on sinning we would have no more to do with him. THAT is sound Doctrine, and comes right out of the Bible. I didn't notice Cloud mentioning that he took those steps?? Did you follow Doctrine BEFORE you posted this??
Cloud claims that Graham doesn't acknowledge Hell as being a fiery place. Hell is a place that was created for Satan, his demons, and those who refuse to follow his COMMANDMENTS. I've made the same statement about being cut off from God for Eternity as being a burning Hell in itself! Does that mean that I don't believe Hell fire won't burn people for Eternity? NO! But, THAT does NOT make me, or him false teachers.
I make it a rule NEVER to accept as fact ANYTHING about another Christian, unless I SEE or HEAR it for myself! i.e. I don't spread GOSSIP, and neither should you! IF what cloud posted on his website were true, (which I KNOW was NOT), then he should have provided links to the source, so we could see what he said and in what CONTEXT he said it in.
In the 60 plus years that Graham has been traveling the world over, time and time again, he has probably led more souls to Christ than ANY person alive. I'm guessing in the millions, and for Cloud to slander Graham and try to discredit him is an affront to ALL Christians.
IF a new convert who had recently been saved at one of Graham's Crusades, read this trash about Graham, it would probably have made him/her stumble and they could fall away! I pray that doesn't happen, because THAT would come back to you for spreading GOSSIP! I assume you have read what the Bible says about ANYONE who causes one of them to stumble?
For you to post his picture with Paul and Jan Crouch and write for the pleasure of FReepers discussion, was no more than your attempt to discredit him because many don't agree with the Crouchs'! There are many, many, pictures you could have used of Graham, but you chose one that would tie him to a couple who some don't like, to try to support this smear campaign. You should be ashamed of yourself. You need to repent for your attempt to discredit Billy Graham, by this 'gossip columnist' trash!!
Nice to see you back and doing what you do best!
God bless!
Don't sugar coat it.
When non-catholics try to tar and feather Rome they sound like babbling Scientologists.
Well consider Rome tar and feather, not be the Scientologists, but by the babbling Islamist who is converting your churches into mosque, over in europe as I type.
Im a Protestant...Southern Baptist to be exact...
"If we had more hell in the pulpit, we would have less hell in the pew." — Billy Graham
I have no problem with those things. But Catholic doctrine has changed on the last one. The problem is with the details. Jesus saves, but he saves even good Muslims who don't know His name or believe the gospel. And Jews get a different way to heave also. Now I have a problem with THAT!
As for justification by faith alone, through grace alone....there are problems in the details of Catholic theology. I don't doubt that some Catholics possess God-given saving faith. But the specifics of Catholic doctrine didn't get them there.
I do not like to be hard on Catholics because I believe many of them to be wonderful people with true saving faith. But their Church teachings are very wrong in places, and can even be a hinderance to the gospel at times. I'm not the most eloquent spokesperson on the subject, but I know enough to know I could never be Catholic.
Let me end by saying I really like the current Pope for he speaks very eloquently on issues of righteousness and moral truth. I also adore several Catholic politicians -- and love certain Catholic supreme court justices. I'm just strongly opposed to certain Catholic doctrines. I think everyone benefits from doctrinal clarity, as long as we don't let it divide us on other grounds. We must unite on moral issues. But we should never let that weaken our theology, or what will we have in the end? NOTHING!!! The differences matter and the debate is good for all of us so that we are forced to examine ourselves against the Word of God.
Bottom line: We are not nicer than God. His truth and the way to heaven is His. We don't get to rewrite it, nor is His way unjust. In our arrogance, many of us act as though we think so.
We cannot think each other into heaven or hell. You are not going to heaven just because Billy Graham says you are. So test yourself by God's Word, not Billy Graham's. That's my advice to all.
Of particular note, potty language - even mild - is not tolerable here, nor is the practice of reading the other poster's mind (though it is fine to attribute motive to the author).
This thread is especially toxic so personal attacks, even mild ones, are not tolerable here.
Argue the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
"The Bible teaches that those who choose to remain separated from God will spend eternity in a place called hell." — Billy Graham
http://www.billygraham.org/SH_HowToBecomeAChristian.asp
But that wasn't Paul's answer to the question, was it?
Besides, I was pointing out that the question "How do I get saved?" (or however you phrased it) would be more similar to the answer to the question: "What must I do to be saved?" than it would be to the question asked of Peter: "What should we do?"
That said, I do agree that a believer must be baptized after coming to the Lord.
I have no reason to take sides in this issue, but to be fair, Mr Cloud did document every one of his claims. You evidently did not read far enough to see the documentation.
I take no delight in this, but Graham's doctrinal errors in his later life are very significant. While he may have led your Father to the Lord, he may be hindering others from finding that same truth. This is a BIG deal and God's truth is more important than any man.
Agree. And that is what Graham preaches, despite your claims to the contrary. I challenge you to find the "weakened doctrine" anywhere here:
http://www.billygraham.org/SH_HowToBecomeAChristian.asp
If you search the BGEA website resources you will find a lot of mysticism stuff, at least last time I looked it was there. That bothers me too.
Well, he asked for me to explain what I originally posted, so I did. LOL! ;o)
That said, Your profile page is awesome!! There's a wealth of good information on it, and I've saved it for future use.
The text was taken from Billy Graham's writings (see source citation at end of page).
It has to matter to every Christian that someone as high profile as Billy Graham is saying that Christ is not the only way to heaven -- at least not in any direct sense.
He has consistently said exactly the opposite over the course of his life.
In other words you can be a good Muslim and go to heaven. Surely that shocks you.
He never said that. Graham has explained that eternal judgment belongs to God. This does not "shock" me, as I agree.
If you search the BGEA website resources you will find a lot of mysticism stuff, at least last time I looked it was there. That bothers me too.
Please document.
If that were the case here, this thread would never have been posted.
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