Vatican may have found late pope's 'miracle'

CNN ^ | January 30, 2006 | Philip Pullella

[mike182d]

We know that this was true in the case of Moses because we have God's infallible revelation on the subject.

Where in the Bible does it claim that the Book of Matthew is the infallible revelation of God?

To claim that a book is infallible because it is infallible sounds awfully irrational to me, don't you think?

It's interesting that we do not find the apostles and early church praying to Moses or Elijah,

Perhaps, unless you find it equally interesting that none of the Apostles refer to the New Testament as being Scripture. Or maybe you find it interesting that none of the Apostles used the word "Trinity" or speak of God as "one in three persons." Or maybe you find it even more interesting that prayers of intercession to the Saints have been found in many manuscripts from the early Church in the 3rd century?

Such as...

Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . .(Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Fact of the matter is that the Church established by Christ has believed this for over two thousand years.

There are many facts that point to the arbitrary nature of the Roman Catholic practice on praying to saints.i>

Name them. Like I said, two thousand years of consistent belief from the time of Christ is present in only one Church on earth.

[Rutles4Ever]

I do understand that God's will will be done regardless. It doesn't matter how much everyone prays about a particular thing.

Except for that wedding at Cana. And Moses over there on Sinai...

[mike182d]

touche :-)

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

ROTFLMAO.

Do you know the definition of a Saint? A Saint in the Catholic concept discussed here is someone who is with Christ in Glory in Heaven. The Miracle brought about by that Saint's intercession provides some proof that that individual is indeed in Heaven with Christ praying for those on earth in adoration and worship of God.

[Almondjoy]

So the opinion of the Catholic Church is put in such high regard that you place the church before God.

Interesting.

[Almondjoy]

The family unit is obviously a support system for us earthlings.

[Almondjoy]

Such lame attempts to discredit me with calling names just makes it all the more funny.

[Almondjoy]

I base my relationship with Jesus Christ on my own personal relationship with him.

The bible be it as it may is a guide to help you lead a better and fuller life. Regardless if it is "infallible" or not.

[Almondjoy]

Which is a joke.. as you can see it is the churches desperate attempt to paint a picture that doesn't exist.

Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it so.

The pope couldn't provide proof unless God let him.. and what would be the point of providing proof?

Just because some psychopath says he prayed with the pope to God to be healed.. and suddenly they are healed doesn't make them any less a psychopath.

The fact that the church buys into these people is what makes the church corrupt.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

it is an act of faith and cannot be anything but an act of faith.

That's why I suggested just go ahead and do it.

[NYer]

Thanks, Doc!

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Desperate Attempt?

You don't believe in the Catholic Church, that's your perogative. But don't even attempt to discuss something rationally and theologically than you know nothing about.

If this miracle is true, and I don't know if it is, but if true it merely shows that the late Pontiff, prayed to God asking for God's saving miracle and grace. The Saints point us toward God, toward the miracles and grace that He gives to mankind. The Patriarchs point the way to God. The Prophets point the way to God. The Apostles point the way to God. The Saints point the way to God.

Just because you have an incredible wrong-headed and misguided belief in what the Catholic Church is, does not make it so. Sound familiar, your logic redirected.

How do you know if someone is inspired? Seems to me, if they don't agree with what you want they are a psychopath. But if they do, they are inspired. Seems to me you have raised yourself up as the judge of all things holy. Not a good position to place oneself.

[mike182d]

So the opinion of the Catholic Church is put in such high regard that you place the church before God.

No. As a fallible human being, I do not claim to know the fullness of God's revelation, nor was I a personal witness to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Thus, all knowledge of the life of Jesus Christ and His teachings come from the Catholic Church, which was founded and carried on by the Apostles themselves, as personal witnesses.

Do you possess an omniscience or an ability to travel back in time that I am not aware of?

[NYer]

Why don't ya just go ahead and make him a saint already?

At one time, "popular acclaim" sufficed for sainthood. Now the process is more complex. Here's the updated version.

VATICAN CITY, SEP 12, 1997 (VIS) - Today the Holy See Press Office made public the following note on canonical procedure for causes of beatification and canonization:

"1. Canon norms regarding the procedure to be followed for causes of saints are contained in the Apostolic Constitution 'Divinus Perfectionis Magister,' promulgated by John Paul II on January 25, 1983.

"2. To begin a cause it is necessary for at least 5 years to have passed since the death of the candidate. This is to allow greater balance and objectivity in evaluating the case and to let the emotions of the moment dissipate.

"3. The bishop of the diocese in which the person whose beatification is being requested died is responsible for beginning the investigation. The promoter group ('Actor Causae'): diocese, parish, religious congregation, association, asks the bishop through the postulator for the opening of the investigation. The bishop, once the 'nulla osta' of the Holy See is obtained, forms a diocesan tribunal for this purpose. Witnesses are called before the tribunal to recount concrete facts on the exercise of Christian virtues considered heroic, that is, the theological virtues: faith, hope and charity, and the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance and fortitude, and others specific to his state in life. In addition, all documents regarding the candidate must be gathered. At this point he is entitled to the title of Servant of God.

"4. Once the diocesan investigation is finished, the acts and documentation are passed on to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. The public copy used for further work is put together here. The postulator, resident in Rome, follows the preparation of the 'Positio', or summary of the documentation that proves the heroic exercise of virtue, under the direction of a relator of the Congregation. The 'Positio' undergoes an examination (theological) by nine theologians who give their vote. If the majority of the theologians are in favour, the cause is passed on for examination by cardinals and bishops who are members of the congregation. They hold meetings twice a month. If their judgment is favourable, the prefect of the congregation presents the results of the entire course of the cause to the Holy Father, who gives his approval and authorizes the congregation to draft the relative decree. The public reading and promulgation of the decree follows.

"5. For the beatification of a confessor a miracle attributed to the Servant of God, verified after his death, is necessary. The required miracle must be proven through the appropriate canonical investigation, following a procedure analogous to that for heroic virtues. This one too is concluded with the relative decree. Once the two decrees are promulgated (regarding the heroic virtues and the miracle) the Holy Father decides on beatification, which is the concession of public worship, limited to a particular sphere. With beatification the candidate receives the title of Blessed.

"6. For canonization another miracle is needed, attributed to the intercession of the Blessed and having occurred after his beatification. The methods for ascertainment of the affirmed miracle are the same as those followed for beatification. Canonization is understood as the concession of public worship in the Universal Church. Pontifical infallibility is involved. With canonization, the Blessed acquires the title of Saint."

[Rutles4Ever]

Lame? I thought it was fairly brilliant... and deadly accurate.

[mike182d]

I base my relationship with Jesus Christ on my own personal relationship with him.

How do you know Jesus Christ even existed? Did you personally meet Him and shake His hand?

The bible be it as it may is a guide to help you lead a better and fuller life. Regardless if it is "infallible" or not.

Says who? By who's authority is one to assume the Bible is a guide by which a person is to live their life? By what authority do we know the writings to be true in any way, shape, or form?

Yours?

The Protestant dilemma is that there is always a Pope: the one in Rome or yourself.

[siunevada]

The only person you should ever be speaking to is him.

Perhaps someone should instruct this fellow that he isn't supposed to be talking to a dead guy:

And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.

[mike182d]

That's why I suggested just go ahead and do it.

Understandable, but it is better to be safe than sorry. :-)