Time is right for Russian Orthodox

"I have noticed this is a recurring theme with you. You seem quite hostile to converts receiving Holy Orders."

I'm not, actually. I am against people getting chrismated or baptised on Holy Saturday and seeing them in a monastery or the seminary six months or a year later, or worse, as happened in one Orthodox jurisdiction, a virtual wholesale acceptance of the "orders" of an group of Protestants who decided they'd make an "Orthodox" Church, did and then were accepted into canonical Orthodoxy.

This isn't to say that its impossible for a recent convert to be a good priest. I suppose it is. But Orthodoxy is a way of life, not just something we do on Sundays or even something we "do" everyday.

I firmly believe that the future of Orthodoxy in this country is converts and their families but I do think that some hierarchs, in their eagerness for more priests, tend to take anyone who wants into the seminaries (this by the way is also true for some of the "born Orthodox" pips I've seen. In fact, they can be worse.) Years ago, the home parish of a candidate for the seminary had to approve of that man's desire to go to the seminary. Its a practice which should be reinstituted in my opinion.

The comments I made earlier arose out of a conversation I had with some long term converts after we had been talking about a couple of failed monastic candidates who'd been Orthodox for a few months and then run off to the monastery. In the emantime I had commented that given the problems the parish these converts are in is having right now,what it needed was more American converts and fewer Greeks calling the shots. That's when the comments about convert parishes came up. From where I sit, this group of men are in a particularly fine place to see what's going on in both types of parishes.

Kolo, I hear what you are saying, but I also give the converts a lot of credit -- for trying. Not only is their spiritual background alien to Orthodoxy, but their entire American culture is as well! Those, like MarMamema, x5452, etc., who went and "walked Orthodox" with the people in Orthodox countries have lived it, but - for many -- Orthodoxy is a breath of fresh air, music to their ears, reprieve, etc. from the years of fire and brimstones, total depravity and predestinations to hell unless you are the "elect.", etc.

Converts I correct if I see that they are doing something wrong, because they don't know; it's as simple as that. But, why should I have more understanding for the un-Orthodox Serbs who roast pigs on their fasting Slava or during the pre-Mativity fast "because my grandfather did," than for the those who are trying but are going against the grain of their upbringing and a way of life?

Then there are converts (at what point do they earn the title of just plain being Orthodox like the rest of us?) who have been Orthodox for many years, who are actively involved in the church community, who participate in church activities, who are theologically well grounded, etc. who can put all of us to shame. I don't know what kind of a life they lead any more than I know that one Serbian bishop in America says one thing and then does exactly what he tells others not to do! Let me tell you: he left me with a distinct impression that he did not have an ounce of humility or love for anyone. And he is a bishop!

I have been critical of Church practices of all the Orthodox whenever I have seen them. I have criticized women not being covered; I have complained about uniformed choirs; pews; Christmas; incorrect liturgical practices; communion without confession, etc. I am not sure what SCOBA is doing or what SCOBA is supposed to be doing, but I can tell you that they are not asking their faithful to be Orthodox. They are more concerned about numbers, it seems, than asking people to become Orthodox.

Minimalism is everywhere. None of us is willing to give up a wife, children, house, to sell everything and give ourselves completely to God. None of us will give those two copper coins, the last two copper coins, to God.

Given that none of us is holier than the other, we need to help each other by gentle corrections, grounded in love. That would be the Orthodox thing to do.

I agree that for the most part converts and less knowledgeable orthodox should be judged mostly by the same stick (though one thing I will mention is that sadly Orthodoxy is often also a mystery in the sense of there is no clear easy way to find out what to do correct short of doing it wrong. It would be remarkably helpful to both the less attentive Orthodox and the convert alike if there were some resources that spelled out the traditions one should bide by, venerating the icons, etc. )

Also though I would not glorify simply being amongst Orthodox peoples. The main reason I know what I do now as opossed to then is a hunger to know both what to do and why. I don't think one can really convert without that. Without a passion to know orthodoxy you end up falling short, it becomes recital rather than sacremental. Having attended many years at Catholic school I think that's where Catholicism comes short in a lot of ways.

I think one cannot come to BE orthodox until on has that passion, and while paying the bills is important, one has not entered the faith until they truly understand why certain things such as you mentioned are wrong. Until when they see them they cringe.

I was not baptised into the Catholic church and not baptised prior to that. (My parents, vagualey protestant, felt one should know faith before baptism). Even after coming to know the Catholic church I still did not feel compelled to join. Less out of disagreement with doctrine than several years of realizing few of those there had any interest to be. They were there physically but spiritually somewhere else entirely (not without exception of course but the majority of those I encountered).

I think it's less important (though hardly negligiable) that we show folks what to do, than it is to pass on that passion for doing it, which is much harder to do. I'd far rather travel 2 hours (double what I travel now) to church, and see a parish half the size but all deeply understanding the orthodox spirit than travel to a large parish with more parishioners but a vague and half hearted notion of that passion. [That's actually part of why I don't attend the Orthodox parish 20 minutes from me]

(gets off of soap box)

I agree on the two distinct dangers that Kolokotronis mentions. I've been around all-convert operations and all-cradle churches, and neither is nearly as healthy as a good mix. I personally think that having about 60 - 75% of the active parish be cradle is ideal, but not everyone has that luxury.

Our current parish is the reverse, and getting to be less and less traditionally ethnic as the years go by, since we are not in an ethnic enclave area. I worry about what this means, but what it means more than anything else is that we all have to grow up and that we all have to be very careful. Both of our priests and both our bishop and assistant bishop are converts. But then, both priests have been Orthodox priests for 30+ years, and both bishops have been Orthodox since they were very young men.

Having sometimes been one of those guys who complains about the new breed of convert and about recent convert priests, I should say truthfully that there is often a little bit of pridefulness on the part of more long-time converts. Many of them remember how they had to walk 10 miles barefoot in the snow to Liturgy every Sunday while saying their pre-communion prayers that they had memorized in both Greek and Church Slavonic. :-)

In all seriousness, I also believe that there should be a "cooling off period" before a convert is ordained. The canons are pretty specific about these things. One is not to be tonsured a reader until one is (as I recall) at least 14 (and this is presuming someone who grew up Orthodox), a deacon until one is 20, and a priest until one is 30. It is inconceivable to me that anyone could observe these guidelines and come away with anything but the strong message that maturity in the faith is all-important prior to ordination.

I can't personally imagine what my Orthodox life would be like if the only people I had personally learned the faith from were converts. But that is just what, increasingly, more converts are going to have to experience. Like it or not, in our particular parish, nearly all of the learning that catechumens and explorers do is from converts -- fortunately there are still enough devout cradle Orthodox around to provide some of the deeply ingrained phronema, but not many.

Most people are just getting by as best they can in the situation they find themselves in, and often bishops have to take what they can get in order to meet the needs of their parishes.

"Kolo, I hear what you are saying, but I also give the converts a lot of credit -- for trying. Not only is their spiritual background alien to Orthodoxy, but their entire American culture is as well!"

Kosta, that never ceases to amaze me and even more amazing are the Orthodox families they raise. I spent the past three days with the 10 children, their spouses and their children of my deceased dear friend and brother Chrysostomos (Albert). Each of his sons and daughters and their families are virtually living icons of Orthodoxy. I went to pray for and honor my friend and came back blessed to have been with this extraordinary family.

Our parish is still majority "born Orthodox" but that is only because we have had an influx of Slavs and Lebanese over the past few years. If one were just to measure Greeks and non-Greeks, we would be probably 45/55 Greeks to non-Greeks. Those demographics and a conservative American priest have changed the parish...for the better. The converts have been an example to the rest of us in many ways, especially in acting like Orthodox Christians when it comes to the actual running of the parish. The days of "tong wars" among the "old families" are over, thanks be to God and the schedule of services and devotions are becoming something my grandparents and great grandparents would recognize. And this is due in greatest measure to the fervor of the converts.

But "crazy convert disease" seems to be a fairly common malady among new converts and its something we all need to be aware of and deal with when it crops up. A leopard really can change his spots, but not overnight. It can take years. Indeed, I suspect most American "born Orthodox" are lousy Orthodox and probably will stay that way. At least the failing of the converts is an excess of "enthusiasm" or "legalism" rather than the overly comfortable minimalist practices of us "ethnics". You know that Kosta, and its no slap at converts to say that.

"I am not sure what SCOBA is doing or what SCOBA is supposed to be doing, but I can tell you that they are not asking their faithful to be Orthodox."

SCOBA does do some good things in the area of coordinating activities, like charitable and missionary work and as a working group for dialog with the Latins and the Lutherans. Beyond that, we need to remember that its an organization of hierarchs and our old people didn't warn us about those guys for nothing. Its best to watch them carefully and stay far, far away from them if one can.

"None of us is willing to give up a wife, children, house, to sell everything and give ourselves completely to God. None of us will give those two copper coins, the last two copper coins, to God."

You're right, at least for most of us but that isn't going to change, Kosta, with or without converts. The rarity of that sacrifice is why we call monasticism the crown jewel of The Church.

Being a cradle Orthodox in America is no different than being a convert. Many an ethnic Orthodox parish in America has been "watered down" and made to look very much unlike the old country parishes. And one must not assume that the old country churches are without fault.

Orthodoxy survived on its immutability. Today we tend to look at such churches as ROCOR as "extreme" but what kept Orthodoxy unchanged is precisely the extreme. Does the extreme also have its negative sides? Of course. I have once reminded the readers that in Russia women used to be excommunicated for a couple of years if they showed up in church four times a month and someone noticed and reported it to the priest. The reason behind it being that the woman had to be "unclean" on one of those Sundays.

When applying economia, the rule is -- strict application is the rule. Yet, more and more, we see that just the opposite is applied. Orthodoxy has been subjected to westernizing influences in America, to communism, to Islam, and so on. Orthodoxy remained unchanged because the people safeguarded the traditions, not because of the rules. They lived Orthodoxy; they didn't belong to it. Being Orthodox does not mean being baptized Orthodox, or converting to Orthodoxy form another faith. It has to come from the heart. Just as a marriage certificate does not make marriage, neither does a conversion certificate nor baptism make one Orthodox. For, what good are papers and rituals if they are spiritually dead?! Obviously, the real thing has to come from the heart (remember the Three Little Hermits of Leo Tolstoy!)

At the same time, the Orthodox need to seek, search, and learn. The tendency is to be "spoon fed." I am sure that many an Orthodox knows more about sports than about the faith he or she professes.

One must have the zeal and the courage to recognize faults and to correct them, whether they apply to him/her or to others. If you see people sitting comfortably, legs crossed, chatting in church remind them that this is not a lounge (but in nicer terms of course). If you see people kneeling during Divine Liturgy unless it is a special event, remind them that this is not correct. Ask why are women not covered when the New Testament clearly speaks about that. Engage and challenge and see what happens.

But, ultimately it is you who must do everything to walk the Orthodox path; it is about your theosis and until you are red-hot in zeal to walk that life, do not judge others who are as luke-war as you are.

The failed and false re-union at Florence is an example of what saved Orthodoxy: the people and the lower cleargy who had the courage to say no. It is your responsibility not to make something that was preserved for 2,000 years into your own personal faith.

If it does happen, America will be most likely where it will take place, because everything in America is subject to "integration" and "melting" and "fad." The whole American society is founded on these premises. This is not criticism but a fact. Individualsm is stresed to the maximum and the Protestant culture doe snot help either. Even the American Catholic Church is distinctly vairant from the Catholic Churches around the world.

That's why I think Moscow made a HUGE mistake to allow such a nascent and culturally alien church such as OCA to become "autocephalous."

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