Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
Did Paul allow the Judaizers to get away with what they believed then?
And our thinking. And our methodology. The church isn't churning out a 'product' that can be measured in numbers, and so therefore should not be using 'demographics' and marketing strategies to try and cause numerical growth.
You make the point against Rick Warren by 'correcting' It'sOurTimeNow, if that is what you were doing.
How about the felt needs of the people who returned a second time to be physically fed? How about the felt need of the woman at the well to avoid talking about her sin, for which she would be publicly ostracized? (five husbands and the one she was living with now was not her husband)
The felt needs of Nicodemus? I would think he would have liked to have his ego stroked, after all he was a pharisee. Jesus challenged him and pointed out his lack of understanding in John 3. There are countless other examples. Did Jeremiah minister to the people's felt needs?
And the felt needs of the people who DON'T like rock music? What about them?
So what happens when a particularly talented goat ends up in leadership?
And what is it that makes them 'see how good it is'? By what criteria is this judgement made?
I agree with Lewis, as if that added anything to the discussion. We are in the world but not of the world, however we are to redeem and use the world's systems and materials to advance the Kingdom, such as money, jobs, education,political systems, management systems, communication systems and defense systems etc. The difference is in the verses from Romans 12 that you quoted. It is by the living sacrifice and the renewing of our minds that we redeem the systems for the Lord's use, not the worlds and by that, robbing the enemy of his own tools.
By the way, I haven't thanked you for posting this article and getting us off of the other threads on Luther and Wheaton that have been going around in circles for the past two weeks. It is refreshing to be debating old chestnuts. I am indebeted to you.
I don't agree with Rush on everything but he is a far better communicator and doesn't leave you sitting "what do you really believe, Rush?"
Besides, Rush hasn't been entrusted with this infinitely precious Gospel.
"Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment. " James 3:1
IN addition, the 'five fundamentals' which Warren poo poo'd as being 'very narrow' are extremely EXTREMELY basic.
And the unjust steward's lord commended him because he had done wisely. For the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. And I say to you, Make friends by the mammon of unrighteousness for yourselves, so that when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.
--Luke 16:8-9
It was written by a Pastor who wished that it had been written by a pastor caught up in purpose-driven, seeker-sensitive garbage.
Pilate therefore said to him, "Are you a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
Even Jesus sums up his mission as testifying to the truth.
One can not be a Biblical conservative and cavort with, and/or promote catholic mystics, new agers, contemplatives, false teachers (Cho, Schuller, Manning, Nouwen, Mclaren/emergent church leaders, and etc., etc. etc.), jewish synagouges and so on.
NO we are commanded to compel them to come in to the FOLD of the true Shepherd (by abandoning their sins and realizing their state before God, and turning to him alone!), not into the church building on Sunday morning. Once they are in the fold, they *then* come into a church that is truly honoring the Lord, ideally.
If you equate the church organization with the Kingdom of God, well... you're ripe for the picking for the wolves waiting to exploit you. You *know* churchES can go apostate, but the true church never will. You have got to be able to somehow discern between church visible and church invisible. I cannot explain to you how to do it, but the more you delve into and strive to understand the Word (I wouldn't bother with some of the newer translations, especially the NRSV, the newer NIV versions coming out, etc) by the help of the Holy Spirit, you will know.
Christ performed miracles to fulfill prophecy and prove that He was Deity...not to meet felt needs.
You can look for Catholic churches doing the PDL on the purpose driven website.
Oh man... what a misleading thing to say. You cannot make that statement so broadly. The gathered church does not equal the true church. The goats and wolves will not always go away. Why should they, especially if the food they crave is there? Wolves crave sheep, goats crave social clubs and status. The thing is, Goats can tolerate copper in their diet. Sheep can't. Too much copper will kill them.
How about this:
Matthew 7:6 "Don't give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
I realize he says 'don't judge lest you be judged' at the beginning of this chapter... and then goes on to tell you how to properly judge... and that you should discern between dogs and swine and the believers. So it is not properly interpreted that we should never judge. The Bible is chock full of judgement and commanding us to make judgements. It's called discernment. He then goes on:
v 13ff: "Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
*********"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. *********
By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
The Fruit of the purpose driven movement (which is only one flavor of the larger Church Growth movement error) is the starving of the sheep, and putting them out of the camp.
in v 21ff: Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' hen I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
Paul "I know that, after I depart, fierce wolves will come among you, not sparing the flock: and that men will arise from among you yourselves, and will speak depraved things, in order to lead disciples away after them" (Acts 20:29-30).
The Spirit speaks explicitly that in the future some will fall away from the faith, embracing deceitful spirits and demonic doctrines, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared (1 Timothy 4:1-2).
Correct, reprove, and encourage with all patience and teaching, for the time will be when they will not tolerate wholesome teaching. According to their own desires, they will accumulate for themselves teachers, to have their ears tickled. They will turn away their ears from the truth, and will go astray after myths (2 Timothy 4:204).
Experience does not change lives. Believing truth changes lives.
Good story. The power of the crowd is amazing.
And terribly dangerous, too, I forgot to add.
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