Posted on 01/08/2006 5:27:18 PM PST by TexConfederate1861
"Remember Psalm 69? 'I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons'."
These are her children in the spiritual sense. We are the children of God the Father by adoption, while Jesus is the only-begotten Son of the Father. But this makes us brothers of Christ in a certain sense, too. And we are thereby Mary's spiritual sons. Revelation 12:17 has this to say: "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." The whole preceding part of the chapter, continuing back, in fact, to the end of chapter 11, clearly refers to Mary, and by way of analogy, to the birth of the Church. Since we are talking about Mary's "offspring" in Revelation equating to ALL Christian believers, and we *clearly* are not all biological children of Mary, your example in Psalm 69 can most definitely be interpreted in the light of the forgoing context of Revelation 12.
I don't think I've ever asked you about this...do you guys have active KofC councils in your Eastern parishes?
I'm thinking of doing a bit of exploring...maybe do a couple of exchange student-style Sundays for Mass.
Hey,
Saw your question. I'm an FDD from Mass and can tell you that while rare they do exist, more commonly in Maronite Parishes, for an example check out the Maronite Voice linked from the Eparchy of St. Maron in Brooklyn's website.
I get the very strong impression that Bishop Mansour is a big fan of the K of C.
In addition I know that there has been a push in Mass where the Eparchial Seat of the Eparchy of Newton is located to foster close ties with the Melkites and there is a project underway to try to create councils within some Melkite Parishes.
That said however I keep telling them over and over again that Mass is within the confines of the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stamford and the Maronite Eparchy of St. Maron and I sort of feel ignored.
I believe (please ask NYER to correct me if I am wrong) the largest Maronite Parish is in Lawrence MA too!!!
This is probably the weirdest explanation of anything from you folks in a long time.
Revelation 12:17 has this to say: "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." The whole preceding part of the chapter, continuing back, in fact, to the end of chapter 11, clearly refers to Mary, and by way of analogy, to the birth of the Church
You would "like it" to be referring to the church...... but it actually refers to the Nation of Israel.
If Paul used "Anepsios" in Colossians 4:10 describing Barnabas' cousin, Mark, why does he use the word "Adephos" (Brother) of the Lord in Galatians 1:19? The answer is simple and you folks are so blinded by your mythology, superstitions and traditions you cannot see it.
"for the most part"..... Did you read what you posted?
I am having trouble differentiating between the comment you didn't like and the comment you are making, or did you like that one?
Context, my friend, context. The woman's children bear witness to Christ. They are *Christians* who "bear testimony to Jesus." This is unqualified by pedigree. It doesn't *say* they are children of Israel. It doesn't *say* they are Gentile converts. The passage merely talks about the spiritual labor of bringing the Church into the world. And Mary is used as a figure in the analogy in a rather unambiguous manner. HER spiritual "offspring" referred to in the passage are ALL of those who "give testimony" to her Son. Nowhere does this passage refer to Israel, and any attempt to cobble Israel into the plain sense of the passage is rather forced. You would "like it" to refer to Israel, but it does no such thing, either directly or by reasonable inference. Yet you say MY explanation of the passage is weird! Go figure...
ADDENDEUM: "part"
Good. Never too late to correct non-theological errors.
Jesus Christ alone is our redemptor. Orthodox do not believe the Theotokos is a "redemptrix" or anything close to that definition.
I appreciate that information. Who knows, perhaps it's best to check out the local parishes -- and, if it's the right thing to do, maybe starting a council is the best option.
Scripture mentions that WE are co-redeemers as well. Mary and us, of course, are co-redeemers in different senses and degrees. But it is all moot, if we forget that it ALL rests on Christ's work of redemption. All gifts that we receive depend on them, as well as our partaking in the divine nature (divinization). None of this takes away from Christ. He allows us to participate in His work, similar to how a mother allows a 2 year old girl to "help" her bake cookies.
Regards
I DO understand what you are saying. That is RC Doctrine, but Orthodox Christians disagree....:)
Exactly, as our Icons do in Orthodoxy, or statues in RC.....Iconoclasts are ALIVE and WELL these days. Some heresies just NEVER die!
Here it is:
(Luke 16:19-31)
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day; and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores. "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried: and in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried, and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you, cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham; but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." --Luke 16:19-31.
(This is the only example of praying to a dead Saint in Scripture; let those who do so remember that prayer to all other dead Saints will avail just as much as this prayer did--nothing)
May the eyes of your hearts be enlightened by the Love of the Truth
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
The people He was debting were Pharisees. Those guys were so legalistic that to address idolatry specifically would likely have not added much to the conversation. However, The first and great commandment is lacking any reference to Mary or the saints...
God did that years and years ago, friend. :-)
But ya totally ignored bonfire's question. How does perpetual virginity equal purity? Sex with one's husband isn't impure.
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