Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Harmful? What a peculiar remark.
"So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth." -- Psalms 58:11 "The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward." -- Proverbs 11:18 "My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste: So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off." -- Proverbs 24:13-14 "Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken." -- Isaiah 62:11-12 "Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." -- Luke 6:23"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." -- Genesis 15:1
And why are we SURE of our reward? Because it is earned through NOTHING in ourselves.
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:4-5
We are saved, rewarded, redeemed by HIS righteousness alone, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world in order to bring glory to God's name.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." -- Hebrews 10:38-39 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Absolutely correct.
Man's "free will" is a curious thing. Man's will is nothing more than another term for man's rebellion. Man can either follow God's will or his own. But if he is following his own will then he's not walking in God's will is he? There isn't a third option.
Similarly when one thinks about what man actually control, one has to conclude that God controls everything either directly or indirectly. A case in point is Adam. There were certain tasks God asked Adam to do such as name the animals. However, who precisely gave Adam the knowledge and understanding to name the animals? God wasn't surprise by what Adam would name them simply because God created Adam with the right knowledge to know precisely what Adam would name each animal. Would Adam have named an animal outside of God's will? Not at all otherwise God would not have given him that task.
That is why Paul could say all things work together for our good. Nothing is outside the control of God. Augustine understood this concept when he came to the conclusion that there is nothing that we have that hasn't been given to us from God.
It does amaze me that people argue for the right of man's free will. What they are actually arguing for is the right to rebel against God's will. Didn't someone say, "Not my will but thine be done."?
ROFLOL!!!
That question makes no sense. Those who "love God" would be among the elect because the only way one can truly love God is to be first loved by God.
"We love him, because he first loved us." -- 1 John 4:19
You said it much better than I did. 8~)
Yes, I think it can often be harmful to think in terms of my reward - word searches on "reward" not withstanding.
That reward being Heaven in this case. The harm comes in the "believe and receive" variety of theology. It can too easily become believe to receive. We only need to read popular literature or tune in to tv evangelist to see this in action.
I don't see a lot of difference between this and a works-based theology.
In terms perhaps a Calvinist could appreciate, it can lead to a view that God is not sovereign. That I can do something, choose something, believe something and then God has to reward me.
To focus on our reward, IMHO, can be harmful.
Doesn't have to be, I just can't, personally, see how it would not lead or at least point one's attention in that direction.
thanks for your reply.
Then take it as a rhetorical question. Would you love Christ if you were not rewarded for it?
We are saved by HIS righteousness, not our own. Therefore, our reward is due to HIS efforts, not our own; for GOD'S glory, and not our own.
Your humility would be admirable were I to say you've got good teeth. But as far as salvation goes, we should be proud to proclaim our accomplished redemption by Christ's perfect and completed sacrifice.
I hope you get the distinction. Read some of the "word searches" Scripture I offered you. It's there.
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -- John 15:16
Not things of silver and gold, but things of grace -- salvation, repentance, gratitude, joy.
"Then take it as a rhetorical question. Would you love Christ if you were not rewarded for it?"
Look at Paul's answer to the question,
2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;[In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Cor.11:28 Beside those things that are without,that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
If Paul was looking for a reward here and now he was in the wrong business yet he kept on seeing that which is invisible,
2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
However,Paul said he did it for a reward,
Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
That's the reward that the elect is striving for, not the stuff that will be left behind.
While for the brief while I have been a Calvinist, I've never known a Calvinist who wasn't sure s/he was an elect. That being said, there seems to be plenty of Christians today who aren't sure if 1) they are elected (denying their salvation); or 2) if God elects people at all (denying the scriptures). That is really the scary thought.
It is your search and need for a point that I'm pointing to. I'm trying to have you step beyond your points, your formulas and your tightly-constructed reasons.
we should be proud to proclaim our accomplished redemption
I'm sorry you start losing me with the first four words here. I'm honestly not trying to be picky with your word choice, but just what is it, or who is it, you are proud of? That you were picked or the Picker?
You have this deterministic view that I cannot see how one finds gratitude in the system. Relief maybe. But it is a nightmare machine of a cosmos to me. It's not the one I know. I don't think it is the one you know either, except as a system outside your experience.
I understand you are saying you take no credit or pride for you salvation which you are assured of; however, in practice... We see it used for just this purpose. And that was where my initial post came in. I'm sure we could continue to go round and round chasing words that fit the cubby holes we pick from scripture.
But the overall view of Calvinism chases its tail for me in trying to explain the unexplainable. This is the plight of all theology of course. But one that claims to have it all locked up in reason...
Do get me wrong, I do understand the value of theology, limited value, but value. I'm afraid I'm a minimalist about theology; it's too intellectually-focused for me. So that puts me on the other end from Calvin. I see Calvinism as a philosophy, by definition: reason-determined and capable of being grasped by reason. It also assumes a deterministic universe which our own experience contradicts.
I think its the combination of these two characteristics that can lead some into pride in their logical certainty about that which transcends logic thereby reducing religion to a systematic philosophy. All the while proclaiming they are proud for God not themselves. How is one proud for God?
I'm entirely open to the possibility that this, Calvin's system, may be a good thing for some people at some times; but it may only be part way home to me.
thanks for your reply.
That's the reward that the elect is striving for
I thought the elect already had it, they can't be unelected in your view can they?
I meant to ping you to 4951.
Why is this a scary thought to you?
Do you deny God's election?
I'm not completely in sync with the lexicon you use. You'll need to explain your terms a bit more for me.
God's election means simply that it is God who is the determiner of who will or will not be saved. Do you deny that it is God's sovereign choice as to whether or not you will be saved? Or is it up to you?
God saves. Who or why or when is not up to me. So far beyond my paygrade that it's invisible.
"I thought the elect already had it, they can't be unelected in your view can they?"
The elect aren't striving for salvation but to finish their course well, i.e. "the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
"forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Because you have made the team does not mean the game is over. Paul puts it this way,
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
The victor's crown is the reward.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.