Posted on 12/19/2005 7:19:55 AM PST by laney
Some of you would find this interesting.
Sorry for the "misuse" of ping list file. ;)
The point is not that we can't use logic to think about God, but that we have to be very careful doing so. Using logic means that there must be a base set of assumptions before we stat. Some are clear, some not so clear, like thinking about God existing in time. We as humans have no real concept of anything existing outside of time. It is so fundamental that we don't question it. That is why the theology of predestination can be so frustrating. On one hand, if you say that we all have 100% free will, then all of creation was a crap shoot. If we say that there is 100% double predestination, then we are little better then automatons acting out our fate. Most Christians believe we fall somewhere in the middle.
If you have bad assumptions, you can get bad results. Part of what is so horrible about the Nazi's wasn't just that they did terrible things, but that they were so logical about it. They started with a set of assumptions, and then progressed along that line till the Holocaust. They did horrible things in an orderly fashion. Much like the abortion genocide today.
Logic is a great tool, but can trap you just the same.
He knows what you will do... because he exists in future,present,past and all the other frames of reference we will not or can not understand. If you could know the future and know that I would respond to your post...or not.. it doesn't effect whether I will or not. In my mind I have replied... I could have chosen not to reply.
So if you were God and wrote that "Dickvomer will respond" somewhere else... then you'd be omniscent without making my choice. I think that's kinda what God has done. He's seen what's going to happen and how to avoid pitfalls and even with all that we CHOOSE to continue to go contrary to what he's taught us... myself included and in fact myself more than most.
Say he (God) knows how this whole "thing" is going to turn out. He told some fellers a couple of thousand years ago. They wrote down or gave verbal stories to others that wrote it down and now we're reading it.
Some will chose his path, some will chose another, some won't know that there even is a path..... some will go to Heaven others will chose the alternative. He knows that many will not make the correct choice even with all he's given us. I think that's what bothers most people... there is no "trade off". You...or I or anyone can't put God in "our debt" by doing a couple of nice things to offset the "bad things".
So a lot of people just say "F#ck it" and merrily go along poo-pooing people that are struggling to find their way.
The only way is written down by the big guy in the Bible. I don't think it's easy, I don't think it's hard... it just is what it is. I mean the path to salvation.
I don't think I've got the stones to do what it takes but I pray everyday that some small part of him comes out of me and shows me how to live a life honoring him and his gifts and sacrifices. But the funny thing is everyday, I chose the wrong path... so there I am. I can see the road but chose the "other" option of ..." you can't get there from here".
Oh well, wherever you go. There you are...
Don't you have to assume that Augustine is correct in his theories?
I believe that the difference is that God knows what we will do, and creates us, knowing that is what we will do. My just knowing, wouldn't really matter
Seems a distinction without a difference to me. Each is for their OWN reasons. In fact, Peter's may be the graver sin. Judas' greed was just a common human failing but Peter's denial meant he did not believe the message that he would have eternal life and be with Jesus in Heaven. That seems the greater betrayal.
That's not a problem with "our logic," or with logic per se; it's a problem with sloppy applications of logic which assume things they shouldn't.
As humans, we can only apply our logic as we know it, this doesn't mean it is adequate to define God. Everyone makes assumptions, it's necessary.
Know what as a fact? That God is outside of time?
Logic. :-) God is necessary existence (cf Aquinas), hence he existed "before" all else (because everything else is contingent upon him for existence), and created everything else, including time itself. Being time's creator, he is not subject to it.
Yes and no? Isn't that too convenient?
Aren't you are making assumptions?
Nobody ever said it was "adequate to define God"; only that it was useful in understanding him. Not least, it useful because it can shoot down false claims about him, and if you shoot down the falsehood, what is left?
When did he have time to write a gospel?
It's probably fake. And why would I want to read a "gospel" from the dude who betrayed my Lord? What on earth does he have to offer me since most likely he's in the "hot place"?
Its probably fake.
The most dangerous assumption I'm making is probably that you are looking for real answers. Are you?
I was being honest. Some of Augustine's stuff goes right over my head or around me. In City of God, he goes into all kinds of analysis of the Psalms that I just don't get. But that is probably because I don't understand him as well as I might, and that I am trained as an engineer, not a rhetorician. My thought profiles are such that I do not "get" things that more philosophical types do.
From your profile, it appears you are more of an agnostic. But you also say you believe in a supreme God. Kind of curious about that (and not trying to set up flame bait). Why do you believe that?
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