Posted on 12/12/2005 8:56:21 AM PST by Pyro7480
Is this referring to the Orthodox?
Yes.
The lady I talked to about studying for confirmation told me that the Latin Mass was history. I found this to be funny as I was attending it weekly at the time, it a beautiful church, with about 100 other congregants.
John Paul II discovered a level of piety and zeal in the youth undreamed of by the church before his papacy. Now Benedict has a chance to discover a level of zeal for the Holy Roman Catholic Church and what she has stood for for 2000 years as symbolized by those Rites that she has borne through the ages.
I really believe that the ancient rites represent the ancient values and morals that the legitimate members of the Holy Laity do NOT and WILL not compromise on. Those that still call for more and more "moderanization" of the church are still those who will be the first to fall away when the winds blow and the rain beats down.
Do you know where in the Old Testament (Torah) the prophecies of Jesus the Christ coming into the world are?
Thanking you and any other freeper that can help me.
thanks for ping and good thread with balanced arguments as opposed to the usual "schismatic" vs "NO is evil" dialectic.
The Cardinal makes very good sense to me--the view he espouses matches very closely my own. "A schismatic attitude"--that I can believe. They are not like the Greek Orthodox, true schismatics
Yet it is true that some of their arguments against the official NO are very technical and have little pastoral use and are thus very counterproductive
Here's to hoping they can accept VII "in light of tradition", so they can be in complete communion. Then let them argue their interpretation of VII via their piety, good works , and missionary zeal. No doubt that VII has been completely and accurately interpreted; a little help from the SSPX over the next 50 years will be a great help.
The first one is here:
Gen 3,14 "And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: he/she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for his/her heel."
Being referred to by God as the "seed (spermatos) of the woman" foretold that the Messiah would be born of a virgin (parthenos).
"Here's to hoping they can accept VII "in light of tradition""
Here's to hoping that Rome will first remember Tradition so that there is something to interpret VII in the light of!
touche, lol
"Not only will SSPX not demand that the Church disavow the Council, they themselves will be asked to accept it,
in return for a lifting of excommunications and a granting of a universal indult."
Since it wasn't a dogmatic Council, it doesn't have to be accepted as dogma. As the pendulum of time swings back towards Tradition (and away from the Clown Masses) it will be easier for all to put this Council into perspective.
In theory, that shouldn't be too big a deal, especially since their founder, Archbishop Lefebvre himself signed off on them.
The fact that they contain no new dogma is not really an issue.
Prayerful bumpus ad summum
The sspx has no intention of a reconciliation. They desire Rome submit to them - the real church- and do public penance for excomunicating the Saviour of Christianity, Lefebvre; they desire Rome reject an Ecumenical Council, they insist the normative mass is evil..they teach that the Jews as a race are cursed...the sspx is a schismatic hell-hole that only belongs right where it is - Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus.
Holy Mother Church has turned the corner. One of the reasons it has successfully turned the corner is that these lunatics have been excommunicated and their malign "theology" and many heresies and hatreds were excised from the Body of Christ.
Let them return, one at a time, as many have. But corporately? Please. We have far more important and sane things to do and their corporate return would bring their war back inside the Church and there would be hell to pay
Do you mean the whole OT or just the Torah?
"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Gen. 3:15)
"Juda, thee shall thy brethren praise: thy hands shall be on the necks of thy enemies: the sons of thy father shall bow down to thee. Juda is a lion's whelp: to the prey, my son, thou art gone up: resting thou hast couched as a lion, and as a lioness, who shall rouse him? The sceptre shall not be taken away from Juda, nor a ruler from his thigh, till he come that is to be sent, and he shall be the expectation of nations." (Gen. 49:8-10)
"Therefore taking up his parable, again he said: Balaam the son of Beor hath said: The man whose eye is stopped up, hath said: The hearer of the words of God hath said, who knoweth the doctrine of the Highest, and seeth the visions of the Almighty, who falling hath his eyes opened: I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not near. A STAR SHALL RISE out of Jacob and a sceptre shall spring up from Israel: and shall strike the chiefs of Moab, and shall waste all the children of Seth." (Num. 24:15-17)
"The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear:" (Deut. 19:15)
"For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
"AND THOU, BETHLEHEM Ephrata, art a little one among the thousands of Juda: out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity." (Micah 5:12)
Even when John Paul II was still alive, you still got similar statements.
"Question though, if the SSPX doesn't advocate its invalidity, why does this claim arise so often from some of its adherents?"
I cannot answer this as I do not know.
"Also, is the poison soup analogy that's bandied about something that emanates from the Society, or is that also something coming from the Society's members? Quesion is a serious one, not rhetorical."
Should we blame the Novus Ordo and Novus Ordo priests for the fact that 90%-plus of all Catholics contracept AND that nearly all deny the dogma, "Outside the Church, there is no salvation?
As I said in the article. We cannot judge the individual predispositions of SSPX priests or bishops or those laymen who attend their chapels. However, canonically, it appears that the SSPX is in "imperfect communion," which is all I was trying to get across in the article, based upon my understanding of Cardinal Hoyos' recent comments. I thought Fr. Newman's analysis in his article was helpful. As I indicated, I am NOT a canon lawyer.
2. I would think the Cardinal Journet quote would apply even MORE to many of the SSPX priests, bishops and lay adherents than even to the Orthodox. I'm not sure of the point, but I think it is valid.
3. You asked: Is it really helpful to tell those outside the Church that they may be in greater communion with her than those who are "inside"?
Again, "outside" and "inside" the Church, and "membership" as far as I can tell, are preconciliar terms that are NOT used in the Vatican II documents as far as I can tell. It does not mean they are not valid, just that they are not part of the post-Conciliar theology or of canon law. I am merely trying to use the terms the Church appears to be using. I think they apply equally (at least the concepts do!) for Catholics as well. At least by analogy, if not by fact.
We are all "more or less perfectly connected" as none of us has perfect Faith, Hope and Charity.
"I think any reunion with these nuts would do grave harm to the Church."
Just as I predicted months ago. Thank you for your charity and hope and true sense of ecumenism here.
The thing speaks for itself. I hope and pray you will be proven wrong. I cannot wait until Bishop Fellay and all the 500 priests of the SSPX are reconciled with the Church--in the spirit of TRUE ecumenism.
"The Pope declared it a schism. So, despite the personal opinions of a Cardinal or a freeper, it IS a schism."
It appears the current Pope disagrees. Cardinal Hoyos represents the Holy See in these matters. He chose his words (repeatedly in two separate interviews) very carefully.
We are to obey the "living Magisterium." See the Catholic Encyclopedia for an explanation.
I think you really misunderstand the degree of adherence to the supposed "schism" SSPX members hold.
Yes, there are the "purists" therein who I doubt would reunify with Rome even if Fellay and (wishful thinking) Williamson were to regularize their situation. But what of the folks who simply cannot abide the liturgical nonsense that goes on their local parishes, and attend an SSPX chapel simply to retain their sanity? Even if there's an indult nearby, you can't always be so faulting of these folks, as (being from a fully established indult Latin Mass community myself), there is absolutely *no comparison* between a full parish life around the Latin Mass and a once-a-week, throw-the-peasants-a-bone indult of the type I have also attended.
Second of all, as has been repeatedly asserted by Rome, though the bishops were excommunicated, the laity of the SSPX (and I think even the priests) are *NOT* in schism. The SSPX was not condemned by Rome *as a group*. There is, I agree, antisemitism in the SSPX. And yet, there's also antisemitism among liberal Catholics.
There is, I agree, lunacy in the SSPX. And yet, there's a whole lot more lunacy in the Church at large.
There is, I agree, some distrust of the magisterium in the SSPX (I have never seen hatred personally). And yet, there is much much more open and flagrant hatred, contempt, and downright disobedience among the majority of Mass-going Catholics who claim to be Catholic yet refuse to accept this or that teaching. I know it first hand--my family is riddled with far more contempt for Rome's authority than anyone I've met in the SSPX.
Intellectually, yes, they do look with fondness--perhaps too much fondness--to a particular time in Church history. And yet, every liberal does the same--communion on the hand, the Mass versus populum, standing instead of kneeling-*all* defended by a supposed deference to antiquity and the Apostolic Era.
And yet, the liberal nuts are allowed to run free in the church. Grave abuses of the liturgy go on every day without even so much as a peep. And I'm not talking clown Masses, I'm talking in your average parish, where Eucharistic ministers tromp all over the altar, the blessed Sacrament is treated appallingly, and the music reads like a Marty Haugen tribute instead of the venerable chant and old hymns that Vatican II expressly called for.
Have some charity for our brothers and sisters in the SSPX. They are defending the Church the only way they know how. And I, for one, want every single one of them fighting side-by-side with me to reverse this 40 years of madness that has overtaken the American church.
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