Posted on 12/08/2005 9:35:44 AM PST by NYer
Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
No, I meant 'conflate' as I did.
Ok, be specific. What exactly did you mean by your post?
Well, if you take that verse in a *completely* exclusive sense, then a Christian can't ask another Christian to pray for him. Is that practice ok?
Well, no, it doesn't make sense if the Bible is to be taken seriously. Your premise is grounded in the otherwise logical assertion that, because Jesus is the "one mediator between God and men," *every* prayer or supplication must go to Him directly, and no one can use intermediaries for their own supplications. In other words, we should do our own praying to Jesus for our own needs. But, in many places, the New Testament shows people requesting prayers be said for them by another, or that a person may be told that they have been prayed for. 2 Corinthians 9:14, Colossians 1:3 and 1:9, Hebrews 13:18, James 5:16 are just a few examples. Read them in the context of what we're discussing here on this thread.
Praying that Mary, in turn, should pray to God for our needs is not idolatry or worship. That she is in heaven, if anything, *adds* to her power to pray on our behalf far beyond anyone praying for us while still on earth. Revelation 8: 3-5 directly speaks of the prayers of the saints *in heaven* and their interaction with the affairs of earth.
It is understandable that you may have difficulty accepting our notions about Mary as a total package. There is much misunderstanding and many differences in doctrine between us to expect otherwise without much prayer and discernment. But you should, right now, under the present circumstances, have no insurmountable problem "in principle" with praying for the intercession of the saints in heaven. There is scriptural evidence to suppose that we can pray for one another, thereby *already* acting as secondary mediators between the one prayed for and God. And there is Scripture explicitly showing that the saints and angels in heaven not only know of the affairs of earth, but can pray for specific outcomes to those affairs before the Father.
It is therefore not inherently unbiblical that we ask for Mary's intercession. She IS His mother, after all! ;-)
Did you read it?
Catholics only worship God, as well. Mary leads us to her Son and vice versa.
My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me and holy is his name.
no I haven't. please do tell.
If Miriam was born without the stain of Original Sin, she did not need a Messiah.
b'shem Y'shua
Do you believe in sola scriptura?
This whole discussion is why I became an Orthodox Christian. The whole Catholic vs. Protestant "discussion" is so divisive.
1. Pray for me. (is that me "worshipping you for asking you to pray for me?)
2. Quoting scripture to "prove" theology. The Bible is a product of the church, not vice versa. The theology was around centuries before people started quoting Bible verses.
3. Mary is the ultimate example of obedience to God. She gave birth to God!!! To completely throw her out of the picture is an insult, while saying she was born without sin is deification. Our respect for her is a Christological statement. (BTW, the Orthodox do not accept the Roman teaching of Original Sin...that's another friendly discussion)
I just had to weigh in on this, because I want people to know there is another historic, ancient church that has not ever changed its teachings, nor will it ever.
The second we start "knowing" other people's salvation or God's plan for them, that is when our OWN salvation is in jeopardy...
God Bless us and pray for me.
*************
Not divine, but the Mother of God. What more do we need to revere her?
That's inteesting that you say Catholics don't worship Mary. As a Protestant at a Catholic school, Father Clarence told me that I was damned to Hell because I didn't pray to Mary and that I was not saved if I refused to pray to the Saints because God won't listen unless the Saints intercede.
All I'm saying is that what you psted is not what all Catholics believe.
That's inteesting that you say Catholics don't worship Mary. As a Protestant at a Catholic school, Father Clarence told me that I was damned to Hell because I didn't pray to Mary and that I was not saved if I refused to pray to the Saints because God won't listen unless the Saints intercede.
All I'm saying is that what you psted is not what all Catholics believe.
Maryiam is the Mother of God. Do you suppose God, who is perfect, chose to enter this world through a sinful woman?
You guys never even utter her name, unless it is in opposition to Catholics devotion to her. And come to think of it, I don't think I ever seen any protestant threads that extol the importance of either Mary or St. John the Baptist, who Christ refers to as Elijah's re-appearance, as prophesied. Are there any protestant writers or essays which even delve into the inestimable importance of either Mary or +John the Baptist? It's a serious question, not rhetorical.
While Catholics and Orthodox are very close, like protestants, the Orthodox are separated from the Chair of Peter. I too attend an ancient eastern church that is fully united with the Catholic Church.
I respectively suggest that that the words mediator and prayer have two separate meanings. From the American Heritage Dictionary "Mediator" One that mediates;especially, a person who serves as an intermediary to reconcile differences."Prayer"A reverent petition made to a deity or other object of worship".
My sole advocate with the Father is the Lord Jesus Christ. On the other hand in the book of Proverbs 15:29 we read "The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous". It was the prayer of a Roman Catholic friend at a critical time in my life along with others that made a great difference in my spiritual journey. While he prayed for me he was not the mediator or advocate.
Brother-in-Christ
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