THE ROOTS OF THE REFORMATION (Part 1)

Gregory's "Dictatus Papae," in which he claimed for the Pope a direct authority even over secular affairs, with the right to depose unworthy princes and release their subjects from their oath of allegiance, inspired papal policy all through the Middle Ages.

I think it misrepresents the true nature of the investiture controversy, which was over clerical, not secular appointments.

Yet Peter is His vicar. He was Christ's human substitute on earth after Jesus' ascension.

Other than the somewhat ambiguous "rock" statement I don't suppose you have any scripture to back that up, do you?

My reading of scripture suggests that if there ever was a "pope" of Rome in the first century, that it must have been Paul, who specifically claimed to be the Apostle to the Romans and to whose authority Peter deferred.

Frankly, I really don't think there was a first "Pope" as Christ told his disciples clearly to call no man "Father" and he also indicated that no one is "Holy" except for God. So calling any human being a "Holy Father" directly contradicts the clear teaching of Christ on the subject.

And where exactly do you get this "Vicar of Christ" idea, anyway? Seems to me that whatever purpose a "Vicar of Christ" could perform was fulfilled in the sending of the Holy Spirit as teacher and comforter. The "Pope" therefore seems to have usurped the Authority of the Holy Spirit.

Christ didn't found 10,000+ denominations, he founded One Church.

Amen and Amen; Jesus Christ is that foundation:

1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cor.3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Pet.2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded
1Pet.2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner
1Pet.2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed
Eph.2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Acts.4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner
Luke.20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Luke.20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder
Psalm.118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

The One Church began on the Day of Pentecost with the infilling of the Holy Spirit just as the Lord promised. We are now "Called" by His Holy Spirit (The Comforter)to be part of His Body, which is the very definition of Church. One Church, One Spirit, One Body, one mind (the mind of Christ)and one accord.

Amen. Let's not, however, oppose Christ to His Church. He founded ONE Church, and it is the pillar and foundation of truth.

I understand that through this:

1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

Those who are freed by the Truth are the Temple of God. Our bodies become the Temple of The Living God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, thus forming the Church which is His Body of Called out believers. Please continue reading on through (1Tim 4:6) something happening the Apostle was warning us about.

However, when its all said and done, Paul states:

1Cor.15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor.15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor.15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
1Cor.15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I believe humanity's ultimate pursuit is to know, or at least want to know without a doubt if they are ready for this or not. I have to be ready, so therefore in a personal pursuit I follow God's Revealed Word, being led by the Spirit bringing me Peace through victory today at this moment. "Because we will not all sleep(die),instead be changed in an instant" But the dead in Christ will rise before us.

Thanks for the reply and may that Peace be with you too.

That is incorrect. The Church was founded BY Christ, UPON Peter

I believe it was more upon Peter's "faith" in giving the correct answer to the question posed to ALL the Disciples. (Mat.16:15)He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?.

Peter spoke up in Faith and gave the correct answer, the Lord would build His Church on that FAITH. knowing Him who He really IS with Rock solid FAITH. Rock solid FAITH, which we all must have in order to have a relationship with Him. And so ALL believers have the Keys because of that Faith of knowing Him

Let us all keep that Faith focused on knowing Jesus of who He IS personally just as Peter did

God Bless

Vicar. 1 : one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy

Let's take a look at how accurate this is:

Matt 16:16-19

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

A couple of things to note from the above passage:

St. Peter and rock are derived from the same word...typically synonymous. Petros and Petra. (Petra is a derivative of Petros). However, if you look in the Aramaic, they are the exact same word! keepa. I posted a link to the Peshitta aramaic in an earlier post, if you'd care to verify that. I would refer you also to John 1:42 Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter). This is a transliteration of the Aramaic word with its appropriate greek translation, since transliterated into English (Keepa, Kephas -- Petros - Peter).
Also note in verse 16, St. Peter responded. In fact, so far as I have seen, chronologically, he was the first of the apostles to identify Christ as the Son of God (although I am willing to be corrected here...)
Note in verse 17: Jesus told St. Peter where he, specifically, received this revelation from the Father. Not the rest of the apostles, but St. Peter, alone.
Note verse 19: "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven." I know that Jesus delegated the authority to bind and loose to all of the apostles; however, the keys were uniquely given to St. Peter.
- Another use of the word kleis (key):
  - Rev 1:18bc Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.
  - Rev 3:7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this:
  - Rev 9:1 Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. It was given the key for the passage to the abyss.
  - Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a heavy chain.
- So we can see that the word 'key' is sort of serious...and the term 'keys to the kingdom of heaven' appear to meet this appearance of gravity.
- How about in the Old Testament (the word Maphteach)
  - 1 Chr 9:26b-27 These were the Levites who also had charge of the chambers and treasures of the house of God. At night they lodged about the house of God, for it was in their charge and they had the duty of opening it each morning. The word "opening" is the hebrew Maphteach. Note the relationship between protecting the house of God and the word maphteach.
  - Isa 22:20-22: On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. The word "key" is the Hebrew Maphteach. Note that the 'key' is a symbol of trust and authority given by a master to his most trusted deputy (i.e., vicar)

Once again, we have another example of where Peter was singled out. So here, we can see

John 21:15-19

15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.
18 Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
19 He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, "Follow me."

A couple of things about this passage:

Note that Jesus was specifically talking to Peter in this passage, not to the apostles in general.
Note that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, was telling Peter to feed His lambs, tend His sheep, and feed His sheep. A delegation of authority that is significant in light of the Matthew 16 passage.
Then note that Jesus told Peter the manner of his (Peter's) death in verse 18. Peter was crucified upside down.

Luke 22:31-32: "Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers."

Note that Jesus stated in this passage that it is Peter's responsibility to strengthen his brothers. He, again, was not speaking in general, he was speaking to Peter.

Acts 2:14: Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, "You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words

Who was it that raised his voice and proclaimed? Not Andrew, not John, not James...nope, it was Peter.

Acts 5:3-5
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?
4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God."
5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

This was the first 'anathema' pronounced. And it was pronounced by whom?

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed. Then he turned to her body and said, "Tabitha, rise up." She opened her eyes, saw Peter, and sat up.

The first recorded person raised from the dead since the resurrection. Who was the minister?

Acts 1:15-16
15 During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said,
16 "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus.

This scene is right after the ascension. They needed to elect a replacement for Judas. Who took charge there?

Acts 15:6-7
6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.

7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

This section is the record of the Council of Jerusalem (continues through verse 29), the first ecumenical council of the Church. Note who took charge.

I could go on and on and on. Such things as refuting heresy (affirming the Magesterium), receiving the revelation to spread the gospel to the gentiles, and so on. The evidence is ample and irrefutable that Jesus delegated the responsibility of chief minister, deputy, administrator, protector of the faith, shepherd, and, yes, vicar, to Peter. I've already posted multiple references to this fact from the early Church (prior to 300AD). There is more where that comes from, as well.

Let's look at this skeptically, if you would care to...if the Church wanted to, the Church could easily have called Paul the first pope. After all, there is almost as much written about Paul as there was Peter, and Paul was the more prolific writer, at least as far as canonical texts are concerned. But it would be historically inaccurate. That's why Peter, who Jesus deputized, is regarded as the first Pope.

I hope this helps clarify matters a bit.

Of course, we have the greek words "petros" vs "petra". Those are derived from the same root: "petros". And they both are synonymous.

so then the masculine and feminine properties of the words in Greek had zero meaning in this case? Is that what you are saying? Just wondering...

What are the keys to heaven in your view?...please explain...thank you.

Oh, and as to the ref to 1 Pet 5:13, consider this: Babylon was often a metaphoric reference to Rome and the Roman Empire. Cf, Rev 17:5, 18:2, 18:10, 18:21.

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. You believe that the references to Babylon in Rev 17 & 18 refer to Rome? Is this the position of the Roman Church?

Petros: rock
Petra: rock

As to the difference between the two, from what I understand there is a minimal difference between the two in Koine Greek. I am certain that there are experts in Koine Greek that would be able to assist. From what I've been able to read, there is a significant difference between the Attic Greek used in Homer and the Koine Greek used in the NT.

Please refer to Thayer for these two words.

As to the significance between the masculine and feminine...well, petras is a feminine word in the dative case. There are those who say that because petras has the feminine gender, it couldn't refer to Peter. However, anybody who has worked with languages other than English recognizes that gender doesn't always refer back to the subject and, in fact, that gender doesn't always make sense. For example, a simple German phrase: "der bruder des maedchens" (the brother of the girl). Maedchen is a neutral gender. Bruder is masculine gender. Just because a neutral gender noun is used to modify a masculine gender word doesn't mean that the masculine word was neutered. (Also note, most 'girls' are not 'neuter' in real life).

One thing I'd refer you to, though. Referring to somebody as "the rock" is not unique to Peter. Please refer to Isaiah 51:1-2:
"Listen to me, you who pursue justice, who seek the LORD; Look to the rock from which you were hewn, to the pit from which you were quarried; Look to Abraham, your father, and to Sarah, who gave you birth; When he was but one I called him, I blessed him and made him many."

And as I said before, if you look at the Aramaic, both "Peter" and "Rock" are the words "keepa." http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Mattich16.pdf

"What are the keys to heaven in your view?...please explain...thank you."

The phrase is "the keys to the kingdom of heaven."

The usage of the word 'keys' I believe I expounded on adequately in my previous post. "Kingdom of Heaven" means simply the effectual rule of God. The phrase only appears in the Gospel According to St. Matthew. So the bottom line is that it meant that He delegated His authority. This is affirmed throughout Acts (as I pointed out) and in the John 21 passage I mentioned earlier.

FWIW

Actually, my source for that was vile anti-Catholic propaganda...such as Jack Chick.

Did you bother to look up the other verses?