Posted on 11/30/2005 6:41:45 PM PST by NYer
Actually, that wasn't the only view. Some considered heretical baptism as invalid, and some saw it as valid. There was no real standard until the late 300's toward the end of the Arian controversy.
You must not have read Romans....
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
LOL!!! This "man" wrote a Church document that entirely destroys your "premise" called "Dominus Iesus" (On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church) issued on September 5, 2000, by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Please.
This is a false gospel!
Of course it is. Perhaps you should either read the document or commentaries on it. It is clear that Catholics continue to believe that the road to heaven leads through Christ and His redemptive works.
then of course you are yourself spewing damnable heresy as scripture is crystal clear that no man can come to the Father except by and trough Christ. The Gospel is that those who believe on Christ and confess him before men are saved and those who do not believe or those who deny Christ are damned.
See post #71. The quote from John 3 says nothing about those who don't KNOW Christ, only those who choose not to believe. YOURS is a false Gospel, because then YOU condemn the entire world, including the Jewish nation, preceding Christ. Utterly ridiculous.
Giving people false hope that their belief in Muhammad or Buddha or Hinduism is no real bar to their entrance into the Kingdom of God
The Catholic Church doesn't preach that Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism saves. Only THROUGH Christ's Church, the CATHOLIC CHURCH, will someone be saved - just as a Protestant can be saved IN SPITE OF the false teachings that he receives. ALL religions have some truth in them - and GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF TRUTH. God comes to men, "blowing where He wills". Man is NORMALLY saved through the visible Church, but God CAN save man any means He desires. Why do you restrict God's Love for mankind?
Regards
Yes, this is the comments I get from many Protestants as well. I don't buy it, sitting down or standing up.
If God wants Osama bin Laden saved God will see to it personally just as He did with Paul. Will He do so? I don't know. If He does it will be to reveal His glory and all Christians can rejoice. If God doesn't intervene and extend His mercy and grace to Osama bin Laden then Mr. bin Laden will be on the side of those who God finds no pleasure in for whatever His divine reasons are. May God's will be done in this matter. But I'm confident that God could bring him to Himself if he so deemed.
God doesn't love everyone contrary to popular opinion. To think otherwise cheapens the love that God has for you, me and all other Christians. Jacob He loves. Esau He hates.
Wrong! You are worshiping the Church. It is only through Christ and not through some corrupted institution that men are saved. The "Church" consists of those who are saved by Christ. The "Church" does not save anyone. Only Christ saves. Once you are saved, then you are a part of the Church.
9. In contemporary theological reflection there often emerges an approach to Jesus of Nazareth that considers him a particular, finite, historical figure, who reveals the divine not in an exclusive way, but in a way complementary with other revelatory and salvific figures. The Infinite, the Absolute, the Ultimate Mystery of God would thus manifest itself to humanity in many ways and in many historical figures: Jesus of Nazareth would be one of these. More concretely, for some, Jesus would be one of the many faces which the Logos has assumed in the course of time to communicate with humanity in a salvific way.
Furthermore, to justify the universality of Christian salvation as well as the fact of religious pluralism, it has been proposed that there is an economy of the eternal Word that is valid also outside the Church and is unrelated to her, in addition to an economy of the incarnate Word. The first would have a greater universal value than the second, which is limited to Christians, though God's presence would be more full in the second.
10. These theses are in profound conflict with the Christian faith. The doctrine of faith must be firmly believed which proclaims that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, and he alone, is the Son and the Word of the Father. The Word, which “was in the beginning with God” (Jn 1:2) is the same as he who “became flesh” (Jn 1:14). In Jesus, “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt 16:16), “the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form” (Col 2:9). He is the “only begotten Son of the Father, who is in the bosom of the Father” (Jn 1:18), his “beloved Son, in whom we have redemption... In him the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him, God was pleased to reconcile all things to himself, on earth and in the heavens, making peace by the blood of his Cross” (Col 1:13-14; 19-20).
From Dominus Iesus, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
It caused a stink amongst liberal theologians when he wrote that, too.
Sure there was. This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia. As I stated before, the Pope defended the "ancient" practice of accepting a heretic's Baptism, if done properly and with the correct intent...
"As far as can be now ascertained, the practice of rebaptism arose in Africa owing to decrees of a Synod of Carthage held probably between 218 and 222; while in Asia Minor it seems to have had its origin at the Synod of Iconium, celebrated between 230 and 235. The controversy on rebaptism is especially connected with the names of Pope St. Stephen and of St. Cyprian of Carthage. The latter was the main champion of the practice of rebaptizing. The pope, however, absolutely condemned the practice, and commanded that heretics on entering the Church should receive only the imposition of hands in paenitentiam. In this celebrated controversy it is to noted that Pope Stephen declares that he is upholding the primitive custom when he declares for the validity of baptism conferred by heretics.
Cyprian, on the contrary, implicitly admits that antiquity is against his own practice, but stoutly maintains that it is more in accordance with an enlightened study of the subject. The tradition against him he declares to be "a human and unlawful tradition". Neither Cyprian, however, nor his zealous abettor, Firmilian, could show that rebaptism was older than the century in which they were living. The contemporaneous but anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate" says that the ordinances of Pope Stephen, forbidding the rebaptism of converts, are in accordance with antiquity and ecclesiastical tradition, and are consecrated as an ancient, memorable, and solemn observance of all the saints and of all the faithful."
From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
Even in the 200's, the Pope is making a determination for the entire Church - one that is held to this day - that heretics don't need to be rebaptized if the Baptism was properly performed. This implicitly states, then, that the Church ALSO believed that heretics were "inside" the Church, to an unknown and mystical degree.
Regards
Pinging the GRPL for your consideration.
PS -- lockstep RCs, who regularly deride the Biblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura and those who affirm it, are unlikely to thank me for this observation, though it is beyond argument a major cornerstone of their distinctive position.
It is through Christ that the ignorant are saved. Thus, another religion does not save. Thus, a person who does not know Christ, but obeys His Law of Love, is saved through Christ.
Or are you going to say that a person can do good WITHOUT Christ? Doesn't He say - without Me, you can do NOTHING GOOD? A person following the Law written on their hearts is following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, since HE ALONE can move us to do good. We cannot do good on our own - this includes Muslims and Hindus. Thus, a Muslim of good will, following the Law of Christ written on His heart, can conceivably achieve salvation. It is CHRIST'S Spirit who is saving the man. No one else.
Salvation comes through Christ, whether we know it or not.
Regards
He said "God loves Osama bin Laden as much as he loves you", nothing to do about salvation. Otherwise, you make God less than perfect. God loves unconditionally. God loves perfectly, despite our response. You would have us believe that God only loves those who He feels like loving.
God doesn't love everyone contrary to popular opinion. To think otherwise cheapens the love that God has for you, me and all other Christians. Jacob He loves. Esau He hates.
"hates" means "loves less" in Hebrew. It is an anthropomorphic way of expressing God's actions regarding Jacob and Esau. Your view of God continues to be incorrect and unChristian.
Regards
Nevertheless, I should be better off as a Pygmy than as a Proddie.
See my post #94.
Zenit did a butcher job on the article, that's for sure.
They're usually pretty good too. I wonder what happened.
There you go with that false dichotomy again. Christ acts through the Church. His mission of bringing the Kingdom of God to man continues THROUGH THE CHURCH! The Church continues Christ's mission of preaching, teaching, healing, and sanctifying. Perhaps a revisit to the book of Acts may help to show you that Christ continues to work through His CHURCH.
The "Church" consists of those who are saved by Christ. The "Church" does not save anyone. Only Christ saves. Once you are saved, then you are a part of the Church.
What do you mean by saved? Eternally? Present Justification? Permanently? Again, how do you come to the Word of God without preaching? Without the Scriptures? Does Christ come down into your room and tell you the Gospel, a la Paul? You are biting the hand that is feeding you (spiritually). Without the Catholic Church, you wouldn't have the Scriptures or the witness of Christ's resurrection. Certainly, Christ saves. But He chooses to do so THROUGH His Church.
Regards
The meditation ties into the Pope's prayer intentions for December:
POPE BENEDICT'S PRAYER INTENTIONS FOR DECEMBER
VATICAN CITY, DEC 1, 2005 (VIS) - Pope Benedict's general prayer intention for the month of December is: "That an ever deeper understanding be spread of the dignity of men and women according to the Creator's plan."
His mission intention is: "That, on earth, search for God and thirst for truth may lead every human being to meet the Lord."
His intentions are that we all hunger and thirst after God, and that we come to meet Jesus. That is pretty cool.
I suspect that there will be bickering on this thread for months, ignoring what Benedict actually was talking about, but even so, our good Pope is still praying that the lost come to Christ, and asks us to join him in the same prayer.
Sadly, I think you will be proved right.
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