The Orthodox Christian Church in North America at a Crossroad

Greek News ^ | Sept. 5, 2005 | George Matsoukas

[Kolokotronis]

Ping for comments.

[FormerLib]

No comments of any substance here, just prayers that the Holy Spirit guides their efforts.

[kosta50]

With one correction: the OCA is not autocephalous. It is independent; an autocephalous Church has a Patriarch, and to my best knowledge there is no OCA "Patriarch."

The rest, I will leave up for discussion. Personally I think it is a little rash and premature, if not immature, but I will leave it at that.

[kindred]

[Other concrete options that the clergy and laity suggested in informal gatherings related to Unity included:]

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The bible is a book penned by holy jewish men under the inspiration of the one true God and His only begotten son Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. The enemies of God try to change and convert and twist HIS inerrant word and will eventually stand for the awful blasphemy of changing God's Word to accomidate their own will, much like the democrat party changes the meaning of America's constitution.This will result in their own damnation.

Galations 1:3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

[Kolokotronis]

Well, I was going to wait for comments from some of the converts, but I have a couple of initial reactions.

George Matsoukos is one of the nicest men you'd ever want to meet, but his organization is very anti-old country patriarchs and is just about the most liberal, protestant leaning grouping in American Orthodoxy. His organization is made up of people who in the past felt perfectly at home with Episcopalian structure and theology as representing an "American" way to be Orthodox, including serious discussion of female ordination to the priesthood. It has sued the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and lost I believe though the case may still be on appeal, over the recent revisions of the Archdiocesan Charter as given to the GOA by the EP. The phronema of this organization is all wrapped up in talk of individual rights, etc...in a word, it is thoroughly Western and for all intents and purposes antithetical to an Orthodox phronema.

Many Orthodox theologians have opined that the Orthodox Church in America, especially in a time when converts are coming into the Church in large numbers while the influence of the immigrant generations is waning, is in a particularly perilous time. In earlier times the various jurisdictions provided not just a religious home for the members, but also a social and cultural place where Greeks could be Greeks, Serbs, Serbs, Russians,Russians, etc. even as they became part of the American mainstream. Because these people were imbued with an Orthodox mindset, there was no great danger that the American culture around them, a culture frankly hostile to an Orthodox way of life. Gradually through a couple of generations, though, the immigrant desire to become fully American, at least as they saw it, lead to a certain relativism with the Church and its relationship with the society around it. For reasons best known to the Holy Spirit, after a few decades of this, converts began to find Holy Orthodoxy, but the Orthodoxy they found often had been compromised by the virtually pagan American society around it. Their demonstrations of fidelity to a strict praxis of the Faith, if in a way which serious cradle Orthodox might have found a bit off the beam, I believe gave some impetus to many ethnic Orthodox to rediscover the proper praxis of The Faith and in many parishes a sort of renewal or revival of the Faith has occurred. The result of all of this has lead to three groups in Orthodoxy in this country. First, cradle and convert Orthodox who are fully imbued with the phronema of Orthodoxy and who strive to live their lives in accordance with the ancient teaching of the Church; second, a group of converts who can quote chapter and verse from the Philokalia but are still learning the Orthodox phronema; and finally the fully secularized and Americanized Orthodox, usually cradle, who are intent on creating a new type of "Orthodoxy" which would look more like Epicopalianism, than the Churches of our ancestors. One can call it "American Orthodoxy", I call it a dangerous form of phyletism.

Given the foregoing, a separation from the Mother Churches, in my opinion, is a prescription for disaster. The oversight of the Patriarchs and Archbishops of the Orthodox old countries is an assurance that the pervasive influence of secular American culture on the hierarchs of the various jurisdictions here in America will not get completely out of hand. I know some of these people...trust me I'm not seeing boogeymen under the bed.

Now, I do think it would be a good idea to form a united Orthodox jurisdiction here in America, maybe even an autonomous one, but only under the oversight of a powerful, Orthodox world Patriarch or Archbishop.

[sitetest]

I may have missed. Sorry for my ignorance. What's SCOBA?

[NYer]

But today in America they are free to speak and write about the ancient apostolic Orthodox Christian faith. In America people are looking for the ancient faith and they are finding and choosing to become Orthodox Christians. They are flocking to both of these bodies through their well developed programs in Evangelization.

Great news! The Lord knows there is fertile land here with plenty of disgruntled christians seeking solid catechesis. Thanks for the ping!

[Kolokotronis]

Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas

www.scoba.us/

[RKBA Democrat]

I'm not an Orthodox convert per se, but an eastern convert, is that close enough? :-)

In reading this as well as your comments, I'm noting that two of the three basic groups that you're talking about are very much in existence in my church. There are some very eastern cradle Catholics who are in many ways the repository of our "phrenoma." And then there are some converts who are very keenly interested in the adopting the phrenoma of the church (I'm in that group).

The creative tension between the two groups is interesting. What I find even more interesting is the trend away from actually having people who can trace their own ethnic roots to the ethnic roots of the church, while at the same time eagerly trying to preserve those roots in the practical sense. I always crack a grin when I see our ethnically Mexican or Filipino parishioners discuss the best way to cook kalachi.

One difference between our church and your observations of your church regards the the last group mentioned. In my view, we don't have much of a distinctly secularized group of parishioners to deal with. And I think that's simply a reflection of the ease with which Catholics can transition between the various sui iuris churches. Our more secular tending parishioners aren't going to drive across town to attend Divine Liturgy; they'll simply head west.

[RKBA Democrat]

"In America people are looking for the ancient faith and they are finding and choosing to become Orthodox Christians. They are flocking to both of these bodies through their well developed programs in Evangelization."

I'm also delighted to see that the Orthodox are plowing the fertile fields. Eastern Christianity offers the ancient and something that is real.

Seen any links to some folks who are actively out there evangelizing?

[Kolokotronis]

"What I find even more interesting is the trend away from actually having people who can trace their own ethnic roots to the ethnic roots of the church, while at the same time eagerly trying to preserve those roots in the practical sense. I always crack a grin when I see our ethnically Mexican or Filipino parishioners discuss the best way to cook kalachi."

We see the same thing. Of course with converts from marriage, especially with the wives, they tend to become quite Greek and very Orthodox. When my wife and I became engaged, my mother and grandmother told her that she needed to learn to cook Greek food to keep me happy and lead her into the kitchen. Nearly 30 years later she's one of the best cooks in the parish and the head of the fall pastry sale. #When she came into the parish, my mother's cronies called her a Greek Lady in Training. Now she's a true Ellineetha, a Greek woman, and can tangle with the most contentious of the Maniata witches and come out on top. Even in the village in Greece they no longer call her the American woman, she's "Kolokotronina".

Among the other converts who didn't come in by marriage there are similar stories and we Greeks often argue about who gets to claim the thus and such family as being from their part of the old country.

The secular Greek bunch has dwindled in any active role in our parish. Most either moved away or became Episcopalians, Congregationalists or Catholic Worker type Roman Catholics. But there is still that problem among many of the larger parishes across the Archdiocese, though it is getting smaller. Its almost like we had a shakeout during the Spyridon wars of the late 90s.

[Agrarian]

I'll add my second to K's comments. I would very much welcome a unification of structure and hierarchy of the Antiochians and OCA, but only under an Old World church. Too much danger of the process being hijacked by the likes of those with Matsoukos's agenda of "Americanizing" the Church.

Bp. Basil, mentioned in the article, would make an excellent primate of such a unified jurisdiction, highly respected enough in the OCA that he was actually the 4th leading vote-getter at the recent Council to select a new OCA Metropolitan, even though he isn't in the OCA.

The trouble with the OCA and Ants going ahead with this on their own at this time is that it would lend momentum to the idea of a completely self-governing, autocephalous American Church -- we're just not ready for that, IMHO.

We should be either under the MP or the Church of Greece -- the former because it is a powerful and traditional-minded Patriarchate (in practical terms, it is the leading Patriarchate of the Orthodox world) with vast historical experience in dealing with Church affairs in a numerically and geographically huge country, and the latter because it is the Church with the longest experience in operating a large Church in the modern free world (and because the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the Americas are in the GOA.)

Politics will probably preclude such a sensible solution, however, and we will more likely end up autocephalous or under the EP -- either of which will not be very healthy.

[Kolokotronis]

"Seen any links to some folks who are actively out there evangelizing?"

There are a number of sites across the internet, most run by parishes or individuals but there are links on the Archdiocesan webpages to more "official" out reach ministries. I honestly believe that out reach works better on a personal or parish level.

Frederica Mathewes-Greene's site is a good one to look at:

www.frederica.com

Another interesting ministry is that attached to www. comeandseeicons.com run by C. Joseph Coulter. The ministry is called The King's Jubilee and is attached, I believe, to St. Philip's AOA parish in East Greenville, PA.

[Kolokotronis]

"Politics will probably preclude such a sensible solution, however, and we will more likely end up autocephalous or under the EP -- either of which will not be very healthy."

I don't think that a unified Orthodoxy in America under the EP would be such a bad thing, thoughI tend to think right now that the other two suggestions might, I say might, be better. The problem with both Moscow and Athens, however, while not of a spiritual nature, are of a political/ethnic nature. Both Moscow and Athens are very tied to their national governments and the interests of those governments, or put another way, they are by their nature and location very involved with their own "omogenia" or "volk". The EP, on the other hand, really doesn't have that problem and no matter what esle one may say about the Ecumenical Patriarchate, it is devoted to the concept of the "Oekoumene", which roughly translated means Christendom when used by Constantinople.

Autocephally, on the other hand, would be a complete disaster.

[Queen Beruthiel]

Thanks to all for your comments. I don't have first-hand experience of these matters so I find this discussion very illuminating.

[x5452]

http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=29&SID=3

[Queen Beruthiel]

As you can tell, I am a longtime FR lurker but a first time poster. My husband and I have been planning to convert to the Orthodox Christian Faith from Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, respectively, but so far we have not contacted any particular church. The reason is that we are frankly bewildered by the many Orthodox factions in the U.S. and we don't want to fall for a group that may be schismatic or even heretical. FR seems to have many posters who are thoughtful and well-informed about the state of the OC so I thought I would seek out your views. Thanks again to all.

[x5452]

Does anyone have statistics on whether Orthodoxy is growing or shrinking?

I seem to recall it is growing but forget where I heard it.

George

[x5452]

I think there may be a place for a 'less specifically ethnic' parish but personally I prefer a strong Russian ethnic parish. It's much cheaper than flying to Russia.