Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer
Golly. In grammar school I was always taught that “and” meant there were TWO things.
Anger: interesting way to deal with faith. Not a great way to start one's own religious movement. Not the foundation on which Jesus founded His.
That's where you run into problems this was all translated from GREEK the finer points of conjuctions are useless because the entire way conjunctions work different in greek.
If you believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, then you must also know that only an ordained priest (Catholic or Orthodox) can confect transubstantiation, right?
Yes, it does. It also means they are joined together in a conjunction junction. Baptism has water and the spirit in one union, as the sign signifys the spiritual actuality. That's what sacraments do. They are signs that are also a reflection of a deeper reality.
SD
No. Of course, I don't. If I did, I would be Catholic.
I mean Jesus as the head of the Church. To me the Pope is a representative of the apostles who followed Jesus and spread the word, and the faith.
The apostolic church established by Christ apostles is the church of the Orthodox and Catholics (though of course the Orthodox reject the notion of papal supremacy, and that the church must be cenetered in Rome).
The church of Martin Luther and the church of the King of England, etc, are not the church Christ started, they forget all the traditions of the apostles for the firt 150 years, the years the new testament was still being put to paper.
Is there to be only one Church or many? According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (the sin of polygamy)? NO, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many).
you should recognize that Peter was only one of 13 apostles (if you include Paul)
One compelling biblical fact that points clearly to Simon Peter’s primacy among the 12 Apostles and his importance and centrality to the drama of Christ’s earthly ministry, is that he is mentioned by name (e.g. Simon, Peter, Cephas, Kephas, etc.) 195 times in the course of the New Testament. The next most often-mentioned Apostle is St. John, who is mentioned a mere 29 times. After John, in descending order, the frequency of the other Apostles being mentioned by name trails off rapidly.
When the names of all the Apostles are listed, Peter is always first. Judas Iscariot, the Lord’s traitor, is always listed last (cf. Matt. 10:2-5; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:14-17; and Acts 1:13). Sometimes Scripture speaks simply of “Simon Peter and the rest of the Apostles” or “Peter and his companions” (cf. Luke 9:32; Mark 16:7; Acts 2:37), showing that he had a special role that represented the entire apostolic college. Often, Scripture shows Simon Peter as spokesman for the entire apostolic college, as if he were the voice of the Church (cf. Mat. 18:21; Mark 8:29; Luke 8:45; Luke 12:41; John 6:68-69).
Scripture 101
mark
PAPIST!!!!
</ignorance>
Scripturally considered, the necessity of a special priesthood with the power of validly consecrating is derived from the fact that Christ did not address the words, "Do this", to the whole mass of the laity, but exclusively to the Apostles and their successors in the priesthood; hence the latter alone can validly consecrate.
I need to run errands but will be back later to follow this discussion.
The weren't Catholics, they were proto-Christians! The Catholic Church didn't exist until 476! That is when "real Christianity" was polluted!!!
Oh yeah, and ignore all of the early writings that detail the worship style of the early Christians (like Justin Martyr), who practiced essentially the same mass that is practiced today in Catholic Churches...
Nope, I'm post Vatican II.
I will say, however, having reviewed the Baltimore Catechism (along with the greater catechism of the Catholic Church), one of my chief problems with the teachings of the Catholic Church is its obfuscation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"I tell you the truth: anyone who will not receive God's kingdom like a little child will never enter it." Mark 10:15
Blessings!
Good point. I was just reading this. This is about the Martyrs of Abitene who were murdered under Emporer Diocletian. The record comes from the Roman military. Sounds like a mass to me, in the year 303.
"We Cannot Live without Sunday!"
Benedict XVI will make known to the world the message left by the martyrs of Abitene: "We cannot live without Sunday."
Martyred in 303, the Christians lived in Abitene, a city of the Roman province called "Africa Proconsularis," today's Tunis. They were victims of Emperor Diocletian's persecution, initiated after years of relative calm.
The emperor ordered that "the sacred texts and holy testaments of the Lord and the divine Scriptures be found, so that they could be burnt; the Lord's basilicas were to be pulled down; and the celebration of sacred rites and holy reunions of the Lord were to be prohibited" (Acts of the Martyrs, I), explained the organizers of the eucharistic congress.
Disobeying the emperor's orders, a group of 49 Christians of Abitene (among them Senator Dativus, the priest Saturninus, the virgin Victoria, and the reader Emeritus) gathered weekly in one of their homes to celebrate Sunday Mass.
Taken by surprise during one of the meetings in Ottavio Felice's home, they were arrested and taken to Carthage to Proconsul Anulinus to be interrogated.
When the Proconsul asked them if they kept the Scriptures in their homes, the martyrs answered courageously that "they kept them in their hearts," revealing that they did not wish to separate faith from life.
"I implore you, Christ, hear me," "I thank you, O God," "I implore you, Christ, have mercy" were exclamations uttered by the martyrs during their torment. Along with their prayers they offered their lives and asked that their executioners be forgiven.
Among the testimonies, is that of Emeritus, who affirmed fearlessly that he received Christians for the celebration. The Proconsul asked him: "Why have you received Christians in your home, transgressing the imperial dispositions?"
"Sine dominico non possumus" ("We cannot live without Sunday"), answered Emeritus.
"The term 'dominicum' has a triple meaning. It indicates the Lord's day, but also refers to what constitutes its content -- his resurrection and presence in the eucharistic event," explained the congress' organizers.
The motive of martyrdom "must not be sought in the sole observance of a 'precept,'" as "in that period the Church had not yet established in a formal way the Sunday precept," noted Monsignor Vito Angiuli, pro-vicar of the Archdiocese of Bari-Bitonto, in last Sunday's edition of the Vatican daily newspaper L'Osservatore Romano.
"Deep down was the conviction that Sunday Mass is a constitutive element of one's Christian identity and that there is no Christian life without Sunday and without the Eucharist," he stressed.
This is clearly appreciated, he said, in the "commentary that the writer of the Acts of the Martyrs made to the question posed by the Proconsul to martyr Felice: 'I am not asking you if you are a Christian, but if you have taken part in the assembly or if you have a book of the Scriptures," he stressed.
"O foolish and ridiculous question of the judge!" states the commentary of the acts. "As if a Christian could be without the Sunday Eucharist, or the Sunday Eucharist could be celebrated without there being a Christian! Don't you know, Satan, that it is the Sunday Eucharist which makes the Christian and the Christian that makes the Sunday Eucharist, so that one cannot subsist without the other, and vice versa?"
"When you hear someone say 'Christian,' know that there is an assembly that celebrates the Lord; and when you hear someone say 'assembly,' know that a Christian is there," concludes the quotation.
Gal 4:29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
Seems like the apostles seem to think that you need to be BORN of God and it has nothing to do with water.
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