Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer
But the Bible does speak of such things...
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."
Does not the above evidence a pretty strong assurance?
[1]
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea.
[2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
[3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: "A sower went out to sow.
[4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
[5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
[6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
[7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
[8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[9] He who has ears, let him hear."
Matthew 13
There will be some of each.
It can be hard to know which group you will be part of!
"The only reason I want to be baptized is because God has planted that desire within me."
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Thank You!
That's exactly what happened after I was saved. I had a desire to be baptized that built up within me.
I know that I can live the way I am supposed to. The only person who KNOWS who's in is Christ. I'm not claiming certainty for myself, nor do I think it is wise for others, as Christ is the one who will sit in judgment, not me.
We aren't denying God is with his people. We are seeing it different - the person some would say wasn't really saved in the first place we are saying decided to turn their back on God. Perceptions.
So what happens when you look with lust at your co-worker, or react angrily when someone offends you, or other such offenses? That you believe in Christ is not a free ticket--that you believe in Christ is not an impenetrable shield, either. You will/do still sin, and as such, require more than BELIEF to get you to Heaven. ALL sin separates us from God, not just the "big ones." What then? Or are you claiming perfection? You can talk on and on about "my faith will guide me away from sin," but are you saying you NEVER sin? If not, are you saying that, despite your sin, you are still getting to Heaven without anything else required on your part (since Christ died for said sin)?
"Pretty strong assurance" is not a problem. "I can do whatever I want and still go to heaven because I'm 'once saved always saved'" is a problem.
""I can do whatever I want and still go to heaven because I'm 'once saved always saved'" is a problem."
That is INDEED a problem - and it is not Christian in any sense.
Of course the instances in Acts were adults--it was the adults to whom the Apostles were speaking! You either forget or are ignoring the instances of one person being baptized for the whole family, or the fact that circumcision was replaced by baptism, or the fact that God's grace is free to all, and since you make every OTHER choice for you infant (they have not the ability), why WAIT to share God's glory with them? I mean, you can choose what they should eat for dinner or what they should wear, but not whether they should share in the salvation that comes with baptism?!
"Enjoy the weekend, and enjoy your worship of God this Sunday"
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Brother in Christ, I loved your posts. I'll see you in heaven.
From a Bible thumping Baptist.
The beauty of it is that the logic trap they fall into is a confirmation that unbeknownst to them, they are not far from the teachings of the Church.
Let's take a look at one of these arguments. From the link you posted:
Is there any other Rock besides the Lord? 'Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock, I know not one' (Isaiah 44:8).
"Isaiah 44 - 8 (3) Fear not, be not troubled: did I not announce and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses! Is there a God or any Rock besides me? (3 [8] Rock: place of refuge; said of God in Deut 32:4, 18; 1 Sam 2:2; etc.)"
Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.
Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 - for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people's names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul.
2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called "rock." Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:
1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble.
Care to move on?
Source: Scriptural Catholic
You are disingenuous. You have been told dozens of times what we mean by it. Of course you are never convinced, just as you are now not convinced by what you claim as the "first time" you've ever had it explained. You are not open to being convinced; you ask questions without the slightest interest in finding out something. You ask them to give yourself a platform to launch your ideas.
How dare you use scripture in its proper context!
Where else can logic lead, except to truth?
SD
Jesus has quite a bit of wittiness. Calling Simon "Cepha" was also a direct stab at "Caiaphas".
If I'm not mistaken, the receptacle where the keys of the Temple were stored, was called something along the lines of "Kephus"...
Like I said, those who seek will find!
Whoever told you that has done you a terrible disservice. I'm sure you are a beliver in Jesus Christ and read your Bible, right? Then take a closer look at these verses. Jesus is quite clear on the means to Salvation.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
Source: Scripture Catholic
Hope is not the same as assurance, otherwise we could all stand up and say "we are saved", simply because we accept Jesus as our Savior.
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