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Cardinals call on Pope to save Latin from last rites
Times OnLine ^ | October 24, 2005 | Martin Penner

Posted on 10/24/2005 6:00:01 AM PDT by NYer

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To: AnAmericanMother; Pyro7480

I find the Liber Usualis to have the most thorough guide to Ecclesiastical Pronunciation.

For example,
The consonant "h" is pronounced as a "k" in words such as "mihi" (mee-kee) and "nihil" (nee-keel). This is not universally observed probably because most pronunciation guides are not as thorough as the Liber.

Regarding the original topic, mny family is doing a small part to carry on the Latin language. I consider the best way for my son (9 months old) and our future children to learn Latin will be through immersion initially followed by formal instruction later on. One day a week at Church only goes so far, so my wife and I have been praying the Rosary entirely in Latin in addition to various Litanies and Office of Compline.


21 posted on 10/24/2005 7:24:24 AM PDT by jrny (Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto Decimo Sexto.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

LOL! That's something about indulgences that is often misunderstood. I'm guessing you said that as a joke. ;-)


22 posted on 10/24/2005 7:24:51 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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To: jrny
The consonant "h" is pronounced as a "k" in words such as "mihi" (mee-kee) and "nihil" (nee-keel). This is not universally observed probably because most pronunciation guides are not as thorough as the Liber.

What's the origin of that pronunciation? I consulted with a Latin teacher at one of the local Jesuit high schools (he's one of the old school teachers; he's 66), and he said that though he knows of that pronunication, he prefers to pronounce "mihi" "mee-hee."

23 posted on 10/24/2005 7:27:10 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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To: Pyro7480
Absolutely as a joke . . . sorry, I should have rung a gong or something.


24 posted on 10/24/2005 7:30:06 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Pyro7480
I was taught to pronounce it not as "mee-kee" but "mee-chee" with a soft (German or Scottish) "ch".

It SINGS a lot better than either mee-hee or mee-kee.

25 posted on 10/24/2005 7:31:21 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: B Knotts

A site for some texts (like some of the writings of St. Augustine, the Ecclesiastical History of the English People by St. Bede the Venerable, stuff by St. Ambrose and others) in Latin:

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/christian.html


26 posted on 10/24/2005 7:35:41 AM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Pyro7480

Honestly, I don't know...although logically, since the "h" is technically supposed to be silent, there would need to be some way separate the two "i" vowels with a stronger sound. Otherwise, one would say "mi-i", which would sound like a poorly elongated pronunciation of the vocative "mi".
Perhaps Solemnes made a judgment call when they published the Liber based on a custom in France. Just my thoughts.


27 posted on 10/24/2005 7:36:25 AM PDT by jrny (Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto Decimo Sexto.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

28 posted on 10/24/2005 7:38:37 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Blessed Pius IX, pray for us!)
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: AnAmericanMother; Pyro7480

That is an excellent book, and yes it does list specific amount of time each indulgence is worth. Unfortunately many of these indulgences are no longer granted.


30 posted on 10/24/2005 7:56:47 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Pyro7480; jrny
What's the origin of that pronunciation?

It is the pronunciation from the Diocese of Rome. Our choirmaster is studying at Julliard and has recently checked out some books on Gregorian chant (which he said hadn't been checked out in 30-40 years, figures). He made copies of a pronunciation guide from one of them. When I get home I will see if I can tell which book it is from.

So, if you happen to assist at the indult Mass in Jersey City, you will hear the choir sing mihi as "mee-kee." It seemed a little strange to me at first, but I'm still learning.

31 posted on 10/24/2005 8:07:35 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Oops, I didn't see your reply #25. Please see my reply #31.


32 posted on 10/24/2005 8:12:27 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS

I had the same reaction when I was learning chant back in High School when I heard the Schola Director saying "mee-kee". He never mentioned it, nor did I ask him about it...but I eventually consulted the Liber, and there it was in the pronunciation guide. Since then, I would say I have heard priests use it 50% of the time (half do, half don't). My observation would agree with you that this tid-bit is more likely to be learned within the context of singing chant.


33 posted on 10/24/2005 8:19:58 AM PDT by jrny (Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto Decimo Sexto.)
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To: NYer
the heirarchy of the Roman Catholic Church

I find this humorous in the context of the article. Or do they spell hierarchy differently in the UK?

I only managed a C+ average in two years of high school Latin, so I sympathize with the bishops inability to understand it.

34 posted on 10/24/2005 8:20:16 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: Desdemona
Which proper pronunciation? There's church Latin, classical Latin and whatever the music director thinks is correct. No two are the same.

Ecclesiastical (or Medieval) Latin has a completely different pronunciation from Classical Latin as we now understand it. A friend, a few years older than I, attended highschool when the switch was made in teaching back to classical. Thus "civis", pronounced "cheevis" became "key-wis", etc.

Friend accepted it to a point, but then exclaimed to Sister Anna Roberta, "Sister, I refuse to believe that Julius Caesar said 'Waynie, Weedie, Weekie'!"

35 posted on 10/24/2005 8:34:02 AM PDT by Cincinnatus
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To: ELS; Pyro7480; jrny
Specifically, the Italianate pronunciation was mandated fairly recently, by Pope St. Pius X in Motu Proprio (1903). There was a lot of variation locally in pronunciation, and his aim was to standardize so that everyone heard the same thing wherever they went.
36 posted on 10/24/2005 8:39:02 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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To: Desdemona
Which proper pronunciation? There's church Latin, classical Latin and whatever the music director thinks is correct. No two are the same.

Gee, thanks Des, I ask a simple question and what do I get? A can of worms,(I'm on a diet, but not That Diet). Hmmm. WWTAU? What would Thomas Aquinas use? I hear he was pretty smart.

I'm guessing Ecclesiastical but now some wiseguy is gonna pipe up with "Well that depends on which Ecclesia."

Oh, and you neglected to say pig latin which I've known since childhood but it adds on an extra fifteen minutes to my Rosary.

37 posted on 10/24/2005 8:41:22 AM PDT by TradicalRC (I trust my Church more than my government; why would I grant more power to the state?)
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To: Cincinnatus
Which proper pronunciation? There's church Latin, classical Latin and whatever the music director thinks is correct. No two are the same.

Weally?

38 posted on 10/24/2005 8:53:09 AM PDT by TradicalRC (I trust my Church more than my government; why would I grant more power to the state?)
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To: AnAmericanMother; Pyro7480; jrny
Do you mean the motu proprio Tra le Sollecitudini? I just reread it and there is no mention of pronunciation at all. Nor is mention made of pronunciation in the papal letter to the Cardinal Vicar of Rome.
39 posted on 10/24/2005 9:15:29 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS

Secondary source - St. Cecilia Schola Cantorum in Auburn, AL. Plus, our choirmaster said it and AFAIK he is dead on about musical matters . . .


40 posted on 10/24/2005 9:30:56 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (. . . Ministrix of ye Chace (recess appointment), TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary . . .)
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