Posted on 10/17/2005 6:28:59 AM PDT by NYer
Actually, at least eleven other persons reported having seem the plates. (See "The Testimony of Three Witnesses" and "The Testimony of Eight Witnesses" in the introduction to the Book of Mormon.)
As for the plates themselves, I believe that they are in the possesion of the angel who first delivered them to Joseph Smith.
Lol....I can't resist. Was his name Nephi?
Sorry, a little too juvenile of a story for me to buy. And what's this "reformed Egyptian" language?
"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)
"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)
Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)
Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)
You are (or were) a seventh-generation "Mormon" and yet do not know this? The angel's name was Moroni. (See the "Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith" in the Introduction to the Book of Mormon.)
Yes, I know...that is one rendition of the Joseph Smith story. I've posted others to you.
One of the blessings (for me) and dilemmas (for you), is that I possess early church publications. When the Church changes its official story, I have the proof. But you too can find it if you choose to look.
***Where is this documented? The only other persons who claimed to have seen the "plates" (that I know of) saw Smith looking at "something" under a cloth -- and claimed they saw the "plates" with the "eyes of faith."***
I have read this also where the witnesses admitted that all they saw was what appeared to be a book covered with a cloth and they finally admitted that they never saw gold plates at all.
Also, Smith offended the angel and the angel took away the plates leaving Smith a stone which he put in his hat and the words appeared on them.
Be careful lest the moderators come in and start knocking heads as they have unfortunatly done in the past.
You can read the statements of the witnesses in the Introduction to the Book of Mormon. Neither group of witnesses mentions a cloth covering:
. . . And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. . . . (The Testimony of the Three Witnesses)
. . . Joseph Smith, the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. . . . (The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses)
Thus, the witnesses saw the plates and some handled them.
Sorry, a little too juvenile of a story for me to buy. . . .
Suit yourself.
Sorry - as with corrupting Masonic practices to create temple rituals, Smith also attempted to corrupt the KJV Bible in his strange book called "the Book of Mormon."
That is no dilemma for me. (Nor does it seem to be much of a blessing for you.) Indeed, I am not sure why you think it such an important point.
The Moroni/Nephi issue is discussed here. In short, the Manuscript History was in error (stating that it was Nephi instead of Moroni), and the others repeated the error. However, most sources from the same period state that the angel who was in charge of the plates was Moroni, although Nephi also appeared to Joseph.
The important point is that both Nephi and Moroni were real persons, ancient prophets of God, who visted Joseph Smith. We can read about them in the Book of Mormon, which Joseph Smith translated from an ancient record by the gift and power of God.
You need not take my word for this. The Book of Mormon itself promises that anyone who reads it and asks God with real intent will receive confirmation from the Holy Ghost that it is true.
Perhaps. But I am curious: Do you know any of this yourself, or are you merely repeating what you have heard? (I ask because you did not seem to know much about the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.) That is, do you have first-hand experience with both the Masonic rites and the LDS temple endowment? And have you studied both the Bible and the Book of Mormon?
The problem with Turtledove is that he apparently cranks out a 900 page book every three weeks. You can NEVER catch up.
I think Joseph Smith developed many of his practices from Freemasonry. I do not remember exactly the root of the sacred undies in Mormonism but think there is a Masonic connection. Anyone know?
You have to admit that this is an extremely subjective means of determining the content of Scripture. Considering how easy it is for humans to delude themselves - knowing about the Fall of Adam and Eve, do you think God is going to rely on the "Spirit" enlightening every individual Mormon? For a book to be considered God's Word, we have to accept that historical witness that they give. Compare the Apostles and Joseph Smith - their respective histories and their personal virtues. Considering we see no evidence of a huge battle that took place in upstate NY, or any Golden plates, or any evidence of an ancient civilization that would prove the Book of Mormon to be true, we can say that the whole thing is pretty much a hoax. There is no historical proff that any of it existed - which casts great doubt on the whole affair. Compare this to the Apostles of Christ.
Regards
Nice post, thank you NYer. Mormons are indeed peddling themselves as "Christians" and there are many in America who don't doubt it because very few people know about them. FR needs more such informative posts.
When Utah was up for statehood, they were told that as long as they practiced plural marriage they would not be admitted to the Union. Presto, there came a revelation telling the Church that plural marriage was now off the table. Utah became a state.
In later years during the civil rights era, the Church stopped promising Blacks and other non-Caucasians that they would become White in Heaven, and they also began to admit 'coloured' people to the Priesthood which they had not done til the courts began to get involved.
I don't know about you but I found that rather convenient timing. ((I was a Mormon during the latter events).
In addition, I've studied much about the Masons, as there's been a great deal written about Masons versus Catholics and Masons versus Knights (98% of which is untrue).
Dear KateatRFM, I was never a Mormon and yes, their timing is indeed convenient. If they changed their "standards," what does it say about their faith?
Best regards
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