Justification by Faith Alone: Catholics and Protestants Together?

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/gospjust/faith_a.htm ^ | 1996 | James Akin

[gscc]

Or is it that there are some Protestants that are more interested in proving that Catholics are wrong than in coming to a mutual understanding?

I am not a Lutheran but a member of an independent Bible Church of Evangelical persuasion.  I believe the above statement is not complete - I believe it should read "Or is it that there are some Protestants and Catholics that are more interested in proving that each other are wrong than in coming to a mutual understanding?"

 

[gscc]

I'm sure that was an oversight on your part.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***It is possible to create a kind of code language in which you declare that first, there is salvation, and then there are fruits of the salvation, and the fruits of the salvation are good works..***


Yes annalex, but what if this "code language" you refer to is not "created" but clearly taught in the Scriptures - clearly taught by Paul himself?




***But this is an innatural reading of the entire Gospel, because the Gospel is written not from the eternal view of God but from the practical view of man.***

I strongly dispute this point.

While it it true that certain portions on the NT are written from the practical viewpoint, there are large sections that are clearly lifting the veil and allowing the believer a glimpse of the spiritual reality and the heavenly viewpoint.

Are you unintentionally making, in the above quote, an unorthodox distinction between the Gospels proper and the Epistles?


I think we are in agreement about the necessity of good works. Think of the cries, motions and coos of a baby - these, like good works in the believer, are a sign that the baby is alive. If there are none, then most likely the baby is not alive. Similarly, if there are no good works in the life of a professed believer, then the person is spiritually dead.

But the cries and coos and motions of the baby do not GIVE it life - they are the result of it's life. Similarly, good works do not give us spiritual life, they are the result of the reality of the Holy Spirit living within us.

Good works can not earn us a relationship with God, they are the result of a relationship with God.

Jesus said, "Without me ye can do nothing".


Your thoughts?


(Please forgive the lateness of this response)

[Petrosius]

I will accept your correction.

You state that you are a member of an independent Bible Church of Evangelical persuasion. From this can I understand that you are more in the Calvinist tradition rather than Lutheran? Also, am I correct that there are indeed some Protestants, particularly Evangelical, that do reduce "faith alone" to mere intellectual assent or is this just a continuation of the misunderstanding?

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** But why "fear and trembling"?***

Because of the greatness of the God we serve.

Have you ever stood near a massive waterfall and felt its power shaking the earth and air around you? Did you not feel a certain about of fear to be in the presence of such awesome power, even though from your vantage point you might have been safe?

It is a natural thing to feel fear in the presence of such things. How much more right is it to feel fear in the presence of the one who made those things, who holds the stars themselves in His hand?


Listen to what Peter has to say....


"Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[a] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake, who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." - 1st Peter.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Again, on this thread I would like to limit the discussion on the definition of "faith." For Catholics it means only intellectual assent.***

We absolutely do not believe that faith is merely intellectual assent - for even the devils believe and tremble, yet they are not saved.

For a traditional protestant/evangelical view of faith see Hebrews 11

"What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith."




Faith is the commitment to believe God will do what He says He will do - even if it seems uttely impossible to you.

Faith is Humility's response to a God Who declaires that He desires to save and cleanse an unworthy and wretched sinner.

Faith is Abraham saying yes to Gods offer to give him a child and to make of him a might nation even though he was clearly past the age of having children.

[gscc]

From this can I understand that you are more in the Calvinist tradition rather than Lutheran? Also, am I correct that there are indeed some Protestants, particularly Evangelical, that do reduce "faith alone" to mere intellectual assent or is this just a continuation of the misunderstanding?

Born in Scotland, raised in the Presbyterian Church, not a hyper-Calvinist and there are those that would dispute I hold to Calvinist doctrine at all.  This is not a matter of Orthodoxy with us.  We hold to the authority of the Scriptures.   We seek to develop a faith community where we are taught the Word of God and encouraged to obey it, so we may be transformed into the image of Christ.  The Bible is our all sufficient standard for faith and practice.  Salvation comes by God's grace through the means of faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The Word faith here is that all elusive word that needs to be correctly understood.  It is what everyone is dancing around trying to define, yet trying to avoid declaring that they are in agreement with those that they always felt they disagreed with on this issue.

 

[Logophile]

But why "fear and trembling"? . . . Because of the greatness of the God we serve.

Your interpretation may be correct, but I am unconvinced.

I would agree that the glory, power, and majesty of God would cause one to fear and tremble. But is that what Paul is talking about?

Consider again what Paul wrote:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12, KJV)

The key here seems to be the meaning of "work out." My dictionary gives the following definitions:

work out vt (1534)
1a : to bring about by labor and exertion [work out your own salvation—Phil 2:12 (AV)]
b : to solve (as a problem) by a process of reasoning or calculation
c : to devise, arrange, or achieve by resolving difficulties [after many years of wrangling, worked out a definite agreement—A. A. Butkus]
d : DEVELOP [the final situation is not worked out a definite agreement—Leslie Rees]
2 : to discharge (as a debt) by labor
3 : to exhaust (as a mine)

It is interesting that the first definition (1a) cites Philippians 2:12 as an example. I am inclined to agree that that is what Paul meant. Even if one of the other definitions is more apt, "work out" implies that the Philippians had to do something to bring about, devise, arrange, achieve, or develop their salvation. It was not yet assured to them.

If this interpretation is correct, then the reason for "fear and trembling" is quite clear. Until they have finished working out their salvation, they are in peril.

[gscc]

Is there a point then that one does finally work out one's salvation?

[Logophile]

Is there a point then that one does finally work out one's salvation?

I would suppose that one is finished when God says to him, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

Until then, we must do as Paul advised: "let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1)

Paul promised that God "will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." (Romans 2:7)

[jude24]

I think, in large part, you have a point. When a Protestant talks about justification, he refers only to the transaction that occurs at conversion, when a person's relationship with God is initiated. To the Catholic, however, justification includes what the Protestant terms "sanctification," that is, the process by which a Christian becomes more and more holy.

Many Reformed Christians deny the existance of "carnal Christians," that is, Christians in whom there is no evidence of sanctification. It's not a terribly large leap from there to believe that justification is a process that includes sanctification. It's not my perspective, but I can understand where it could come from.

[gscc]

Does than the judgment depend on how one runs the race or how one ends the race (state of spiritual health upon passing)?

[Uri’el-2012]

Is there a point then that one does finally work out one's salvation?

John. 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
John. 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John. 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
no-one can snatch them out of my hand.
John. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all;
[Many early manuscripts What my Father has given me is
greater than all] no-one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
John. 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
John. 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,

b'shem Y'shua

[Cvengr]

Because "faith" is such a key term, it is necessary that each theological school have a fixed usage of it in practice, even though there is more than one use of the term in the Bible. Evangelical leaders, in response to the antinomianism that has washed over the American church scene in the last hundred and fifty years, are attempting to impose a uniform usage to the term "faith" in their community to prevent these problems.

For the believer in Christ, with the mind of Christ, we accept Scripture as the communication of His mind.

The above quote from the passage notes that there is more than one use of the term in Scripture. Obviously, it isn't for man to attempt to rewrite the mind of Christ into our natural perspective, but rather for us to further develop our thinking by His Word. If it has several different meanings in different contexts, then it's much more appropriate to learn how He intends us to think, rather than to formulate a uniform usage of the word to resolve contrived problems. The only solution to the problems perceived is to learn the Word of God with the mind of Christ which He has made available to us through faith in Him.

The second half of the quote assumes antinomianism is the only consequence to issues such as doctrine of the unlimited atonement. Amyrauldism is probably closer to what I have found to be a sound doctrinal stance as opposed to antinomianism, but studying the usage of faith and belief, as well as spirit, soul, nephesh, life, also have helped my growth in Him. I haven't found one simple English definition of 'faith' to be communicated by Scripture, but I do find Scripture to be reliable and where one might perceive difficulty in understanding its meaning, one has begun to track areas in Scripture where they need further study to exercise the mind of Christ.

[Cvengr]

I agree with your analogy.

[Uri’el-2012]

Amyrauldism is probably closer to what I have found to be a sound doctrinal stance as opposed to antinomianism, but studying the usage of faith and belief, as well as spirit, soul, nephesh, life, also have helped my growth in Him

I also believe that there is noel in tulip.

b'shem Y'shua

[Cvengr]

Noel or No 'l' ;^)

[Uri’el-2012]

NO "el" of cause.

Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say,
'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" [Psalm 118:26]

Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord

Y'shua HaMashiach

[Cvengr]

Does than the judgment depend on how one runs the race or how one ends the race (state of spiritual health upon passing)?

Good prudent question!

I've found different denominations tend to base their interpretation and resolution of that question, frequently, upon more basic doctrinal foundations. Where those denominations may differ in those foundations, upon doctrines of election, justification, sanctification, redemption, atonement, repentance and faith, influences their conclusions.

IMHO, the doctrines I've found to best communicate the Word hold that upon initial faith, we are found positionally sanctified and we are regenerated in the spirit by the Holy Spirit. That new life might also be discerned from soul life or bodily life. Nevertheless, it is a life given us by God Himself and will not be removed.

Some Reformed positions believe it is possible to lose one's salvation, but I find that to not be sound doctrine.

Post-salvation sin exists and brings up issues of grieving the Holy Spirit and Quenching the Holy Spirit.

I understand two judgments will occur. One for believers in providing rewards in heaven. Another for all others, partly resolving many issues of good and evil, wherein any good void of divine righteousness will be deemed good for nothingness, resulting in unbelievers being cast into the Lake of Fire.

I firmly agree the doctrines of carnal believers exist and they strongly indicate that believers outside the mind of Christ merely grieve the Holy SPirit and leave many of the foreknown blessings reserved for us personally, to become eternal memorials to our foolishness when we rebelled against Him.

To answer your question directly, it only takes a little more faith than no faith for a saving faith. After our spirit is regenerated, we have everlasting life. Our continued sanctification depends upon us remaining in fellowship with Him on His terms, i.e. through faith in Him. Wheever we sin as believers, we actually have stepped away from faith in Him, but upon repentence and confession of our sins to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us those sins. Our rewards then in heaven might have been placed there in escrow, so to speak, and where we fail to live up to our responsible account to remain faithful to Him, we fail to have sufficient grounds for claiming those blessings. Nevertheless, even we as believers, and even God Himself, lacks the power to remove our eternal life, simply because He is also immutable and omniscient and would never have given us that life initially upon our spiritual regeneration unless we were to retain it eternally. We cannot remove it ourselves, although we might rebel sufficiently to find us good for nothing while we are alive prior to the first death, thereby in His infinite wisdom, might find it better He call us home to Him, than allow us to live for no good reason.

How one runs the race or ends the race, is emphasized in a positive note in Scripture, and IMHO, I've found because He is a God of the Living, not a God of the dead. While we are here, there's no need to re-emphasize a negative aspect, in part because faith is better emphasized and continued to be taught by emphasizing how we may continue to be sanctified, even after post-salvation sin.

Passages relating to mortal sins might also be gleaned to communicate certain conditions which manifest a lack of faith and how certain rewards will not be provided.

Of course, if one interprets that complete avoidance of mortal sins is preferable to allowance for them, obviously the consequence will be for the believer to keep temptations of that sort in check, and perhaps a method to reinforce one's devotion to faithfulness. On that note, I don't find sufficient grounds to argue, but rather a reminder to remain faithful in Him in all things, so the issue becomes moot through faith in Him.

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** Careful you are sounding like a Calvinist and of course you are right.***

Or rather, Calvin was sounding scriptural!

:)