Roman Catholicism: 'Hail Mary' Is More Than a Football Play

Newsweek ^ | Aug. 29 - Sept. 5, 2005 issue | Joan Raymond and Daniel McGinn

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Well, the faith is the key. The Catholic teaching is that works without faith is vanity; at the same time, faith without works is dead:***



Do you believe you enter into a right relationship with God though works or by faith?

[annalex]

I would not draw a distinction. For example, the early Christians received martyrdom not because their faith was stronger but because they were chosen to receive it through fate. One may have faith that is internally strong but not tested; and someone else might have a weak faith that grows through tests. The important thing is acts of faith, -- not professions of faith and not display of vain charity.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I would not draw a distinction.***

I must confess that I don't quite follow your answer.


"For example, the early Christians received martyrdom not because their faith was stronger but because they were chosen to receive it through fate. One may have faith that is internally strong but not tested;"


See, I understand the Bible to teach that we, (and these Christian martyers) initially enter into a covenant with God, (i.e. right relationship with God) by hearling of and accepting His offer of salvation (presented in the Gospel) by faith. This is Justification. This is when we are put "in" to Christ and when we receive the Holy Spirit to live within us. There are no "works" to be done - only belief is required.


***The important thing is acts of faith, -- not professions of faith ***

Acts of faith are "necessary" in that they are "signs of life" - they are signs that Justification has taken place. There must be acts of faith or "fruit" as the Bible calls it or the person never was truly spiritually converted.

But the acts of faith do not bring spiritual life, they are the products of spiritual life.

Thoughts?

[annalex]

I understand the Bible to teach that we [..] initially enter into a covenant with God

[...]

There must be acts of faith or "fruit" as the Bible calls it or the person never was truly spiritually converted

I think I addressed this view in this post of mine:

It is possible to create a kind of code language in which you declare that first, there is salvation, and then there are fruits of the salvation, and the fruits of the salvation are good works. We certainly can agree that, speculatively speaking, God, Who is outside of time, knows His elect and so His grace enables all good works, and frustrates the bad works that do not come from the operation of the free will. But this is an innatural reading of the entire Gospel, because the Gospel is written not from the eternal view of God but from the practical view of man. In that view, works are not predicated on the elect status, which is unknowable, but on the operation of the free will toward sainthood.

(#19 above)

Yes, faith is primary. If one does works pharisaically, clearly that does nothing to his salvation. But works are a part of the gradual process of strengthening one's faith. As Catholic, I refuse to view what is typically a process of faith, acts of faith, more faith, more acts of faith, ... as, instead, being a binary and static transition into justification. I find this whole Lutheran construct very artificial and unscriptural. I suspect, his real motivation was to deny the existence of Purgatory, and he correctly understood that a binary black-or-white concept of justification was a logical necessity if the Purgatory is to be avoided in his theology.