Posted on 06/26/2005 8:25:19 PM PDT by Destro
...with a pseudo-language and psuedo-alphabet. Macedonia is one true-blue "pseudoid."
For the record: the Serbian Orthodox Church is not at all opposed to granting autonomy and eventually autcephaly to the so-called "Macedonian Orthodox Church." All it is asking of the schsimatics is to follow the process established by the Church canon.
But, a communist-created "church" would not know what law is and, in this act, perfectly reflects the communist-created "nation" it claims to represnet.
I can only pray that Bishop Jovan will set an example while imprisoned that will awaken the Macedonian Christians to the true nature of the Tito-created Macedonian Orthodox Church and set themselves on the path to full communion with the rest of the Orthodox Church.
'THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS IS THE SEED OF THE CHURCH'
One thing I love about being an American is that we have come a long way as nation and society. It is truely sad how difficult it is for Serbians to understand what freedom and liberty means. First of all we have some simple facts. That are that the Macedonian people only want to live PEACEFULLY amoung there neighbors. They only want to be recognized for who they are. And second, to run there church under the power of the people. Thats all. Simple. No, but the Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgars have nothing better to do with themselves but to destroy a nations asperation to be free. I cant help but ask myself
why?
Lets start with Greece. The mother of democracy, philosophy, poetry, geometry, and so forth. How can a nation that is credited with giving so much to this world be reduced to a bunch of nationalists with no respect for basic human rights. I think if it was Serbia to your north you would be treating them the exact same way. We all know your ill will toward Albania and Turkey.
Serbia, lets see. Cant you look back to the last 15 years and wish you could start over. You guys picked a fight with every one of your neighbors. Destroyed thousands of families and lives. And now for you enchor- drum roll please- your gonna preach to the "godless" Macedonians about religion. HAAAAAHAAAAA! Oh this one gets me the most, the communist invented state of Macedonia.
I guess thats why the serbians favorite expression is "ebem ti bog". Translation "your fuC**en God" NOW THAT IS A GODLESS EXPRESSION BROUGHT TO YOU BY YOUR LOCAL GODLESS COMMUNIST. I think the Serbs need to do more reading of the bible and forget about the garbage Marxist crap they all been raised on.
Bulgars, here is another case of communism gone wild. To this day they teach there school kids that the greatest Bulgarian town is Ohrid. Ohrid is the heart and soul of Macedonia. I never here Bulgarians crying over southern Macedonia, or should I say Norther Greece.
Its very simple; life, liberty, and the the pursuit of happiness. The Macedonian nationa is not Greek. The Macedonian church is not Serbian. And the Macedonian people are not Bulgars. This is how we feel and thats how we have always felt, and this is how we are always gonna feel. Get it!
FormerLib, you should pray, pray that on the day of judgement you find relief from all the evil things you've done in your life. Pray for all those people killed in the balkan wars. Pray that god will have mercey on you for all of the evil thing you say about Macedonians and your fellow man.
Then again, I dont think you have any idea what it is to pray.
One more thing, just to clear things up for the record. It is Serbs who should be thankful for the Macedonian evangialists who brought you to LIGHT. I clearly remember now. It was St. Paul who travelled to MACEDONIA and preached christianity and converted the first gentile woman, her name was Lydia. I bet you never did read the New Testement though did you? Oh, but your the expert.
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
Kosta, orthodoxy has lost its purpose. You are living proof. You can't deny the biggest piece of the Orthodox puzzle and pretend that its pure.
Macedonia is Orthodoxy at its roots. Deny that and you deny gods church.
One more thing, Jovan is a traitor to his country and his people. All he got was a slap on the wrist. I hope that he sets a fine example to any other Macedonian turned traitor selling out his people and soul to the evil Marxist Serbs.
Serbs have seven cases in thier language, just like the Church Slavonic you claim for your "nation". The above quote is not Serbian but your impoverished four-case language, a bad-imitation of Serbian. Communists Tito and Zhivkov gave you after WWII the alphabet and the grammar for that dialect you call a language.
St. Paul went to Maceodnia alright, but those who call themselves "Macedonians" today are not Greeks. When +Paul went to Macedonia in the first half of the first century, the Slavs were way to the east of what is today the so-called Republic of Macedonia.
You are making fun of Greece? The so-called spurious country called "Macedonia" has no freedom of religion. Serbia and Greece are not nice to Albania or Bulgaria? Really? Was it not for Bulgaria that started the second balkan War and then eded up being allies with the Nazis? Was it not Albaia that was allies with Nazis too? Was it not your so-called spurious country with a spurious language and a spurious "church" that not so long ago did not want to have a single Albanian in its government? Was it not your so-called "country" (more like a banana republic) that was subject to Albanian nationalist uprisings and had to eat crow with freathers and all after that?
Deny that and you deny gods[sic] church
So, God's Church depends on Macedonia? Okay, you made me laugh. That was funny -- in a pathetic way. :-)
"Kosta, orthodoxy has lost its purpose. You are living proof. You can't deny the biggest piece of the Orthodox puzzle and pretend that its pure. Macedonia is Orthodoxy at its roots."
Can I, a non-Balkan and non-Slavic just plain old American guy who's Orthodox, ask a simple question of two?
If Macedonia is "Orthodoxy at its roots", why does it claim the Pope of Rome as being a supporter? I don't get that.
Now I think Kosta himself would agree that a lot of Orthodox jurisdictions have lost their roots. But the impression I get is that yours may be one of those with a serious problem. Here in my neck of the woods, the local MOC priest says the MOC is no different than the Roman Catholic Church, but just Macedonian for Macedonians. Huh?
The whole "country" and its "language" and its "church" and even its name is made up because the Macedonians of today have nothing in common with the Macedonians of +Paul's time.
The Serbian Orthodox Church is not opposed to granting autonomy to the so-called MOC, but is merely reminding the MOC that it cannot be legislated, especially by an atheist body, and made legitimate. Rather, the Church canons provide for a peaceful and leigitmate way of establishing autonomy to which the SOC is not opposed, as I mentioned before.
The illegitimacy of the so-called MOC is manifested by the fact that none of the Orthodox Churches in the world recognize it.
Unfortunately, the "MOC" and the "Macedonian" government is willing to follow anyone who would throw them a bone, be they communists or the Pope. It is a pathetic example of nation-building. The so-called Macedonian government and its communist-created "church" are, instead of being separate, quite connected, yet this individual whose name reflects the town in the region called Bitola will accuse everyone else of that sin! The same 'government' also uses the communist-era "verbal crime" provision of the communist-era to suppress freedom of speech and to interfere into the legitimate activities of the Serbian orthodox Church in "Maceodnia," yet they accuse the Serbs of unrepentant communism. As I said it made me laugh because everything about "Macedonia" is just plain pathetic.
I just got taken to task for not pinging a person mentioned. My apologies for not pinging you. Someone else says I am NOT to ping him.
Oy vay!
Well anyway, I thank you for the explanation. And yes, it makes sense. I get so confused by all of these Balkan rivalries.
When you say, "The 'language' is predominantly Bulgarian with many Serbian elements, depending on which side of the River Vardar you are" it makes Macedonia sound a lot like Swabia. Depending on which side of the Rhine you happen to live, the language leans to French or German, but it's mostly German with French elements.
It's not even that different! Serbian and Bulgarian and "Macedonian" are very similar languages, both South Slavic. They are very intelligible to all three. I can easily read and understand most of a Bulgarian or Macedonian Internet page, just as I can read Russian or Ukrainian. These languages remained connected through Church Slavonic (the sole source of literary language for centuries under Ottoman oppression), which was and should still be intelligible to all native speakers.
Bulgarian (and "Macedonian") underwent a strange metamorphosis, however, in that it lost its original seven case structure. Te only language that retains is Serbian (Russian has six). So, structurally, Serbian is the closest to Church Slavonic in structure and in infinitive form (ending on -"i", as in "moliti," to pray), and in the "sht" form, which has morphed in Russian into "shch." The Bulgarian/"Macedonian" change resulted in a 4-case language which to the Serbs seems very "truncated" alá "me Tarzan, you Jane" English form.
The singular peculiarity in the Bulgarian/"Macedonian" grammatical form is the introduction of articles which are unknown to Slavic languages -- part of the reason why Slavic immigrants to America always say "I see book." (kniga) The Bulgarian/"Macedonian" form says "I see book that" (knigata).
So, when the "Macedonian" nation of late was being made by communists in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria (at that time the two communist countries were shooting for an all South Slavic Federation, but it fell through -- because Bulgarians passionately served the Soviets and Germans as they are willing to serve NATO today), their "language" was being created too. The Cyrillic alphabet was derived from the Serbian Cyrillic and the grammar from Bulgarian (but "Macedonian" could just as easily be written in Bulgarian Cyrillic).
Western part of "Macedonia" (to the west of the Vardar the vocabulary etc. more than in grammar. So, the "language" is really a dialect somewhere between Bulgarian and Serbian, with predominantly Bulgarian structure and regional vocabulary. It would be equivalent to making Cockney English into a separate "language."
Welcome to Free Republic and try to conduct yourself in a civil manner.
So, you are attempting to deny that the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" was formed by Tito attempting to weaken the Serbian Orthodox Church (which was always the chief enemy of the Marxists)? You might as well deny that grass is green as well.
Take a time out!
" '"Macedonian Orthodox Church' was formed by Tito attempting to weaken the Serbian Orthodox Church (which was always the chief enemy of the Marxists)"
I find this interesting because, in my area, there is a huge MOC temple. Are they all Communists? If, as kosta50 says, the ethnicity is more Bulgarian than anything else, I don't see why they don't just go to the OCA place. But if their gripe is with ecumenism, which it obviously is not (not if they say they are papists!), I would think they'd hook up with a notably anti-ecumenist jurisdiction.
Just my personal opinion, but 1) I think these people have serious issues and 2) I'd like to know who funds this operation.
It really comes down to this: the other Orthodox Churches do not recognize the path they've taken toward autonomy as a legitimate one. The best thing would be to bring them back into the Orthodox fold and then proceed as necessary.
"... bring them back..."
It's their move.
"Graves, the so-called MOC was legislated by a communist decree in the late 1960's and 'voted' into existence by a communist assembly (rubber-stamping the decree)pretty much the way their language was legislated out of nothing, after the communist authorities in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia literally 'built up' this "language" from overnight."
These are lame atempts to defame Macedonians. Yugoslavia was an invention of the western powers. The MOC was just a re-establishment of the church that was abolished by the turks in the late 18th century. And I'm very sure you know why that happened. It lead to the creation of the Greek church which gained control of the christian population in the turkish empire. This paved the way for what would become the Brittish golden colony of Greece.
Yugoslavia was created just like Iraq was. It consisted of all these different ethnic groups that could easily be manipulated into civil strife. Divide and conquer. You Serbs sould change your tactics, you have more to worry about right now. Like Kosovo. It seem that the problem lies in your nationalism. It is equil to that of the Albanians.
Cant we all just get along.
We just want our god given right. Life, liberty, and our god given right to be Macedonians. Whats so hard to understand.
I have plenty of Serbian, Greek, and Bulgarian aquaintances. Whats wrong with a small minority of you who preach all this hatred.
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