Posted on 06/25/2005 6:13:56 AM PDT by DouglasKC
I'll have to answer this tonight when i have more time. I'm off to sabbath services. Read all of Colossians 2 though...
Good one...
Shup? :>)
Denominational distinctives...ya gotta love 'em.
Regarding your question about Col 2:16....
On the surface some people assume that this verse means we no longer should observe dietary laws or God's holy days, particularly a New Moon or a Sabbath celebration. But it does not say that.
Consider: The Colossians were Gentile, Pagan Greeks before their conversion. If it were not necessary to observe these things anymore why would Paul bother to mention it. These observances were completely unknown to the Colossians before. Paul is saying....."Don't let anyone judge you because you are observing these things....now". Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles and as such he made all Gentile converts very familiar with God's dietary laws and Festivals.
On the surface some people assume that this verse means we no longer should observe dietary laws or God's holy days, particularly a New Moon or a Sabbath celebration. But it does not say that.
Consider: The Colossians were Gentile, Pagan Greeks before their conversion. If it were not necessary to observe these things anymore why would Paul bother to mention it. These observances were completely unknown to the Colossians before. Paul is saying....."Don't let anyone judge you because you are observing these things....now". Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles and as such he made all Gentile converts very familiar with God's dietary laws and Festivals.
Your explanation is not in accord with Paul's writing here ...Roman 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.
He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Using my "New International Version" Bible I find that your scripture reads somewhat differently.
NIV Romans 14
1.Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters. 2.One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3.The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5.One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6.He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Paul is talking about "Disputable Matters".(14:1) Paul is not talking about "Indisputable Dietary Commands" given by the Lord. Paul is talking about "Vegetarians" whose faith is weak!(14:2) These folks considered ANY MEAT as a "common" food and as such....abstained. The everything that Paul is referring to is the food (meat & vegetables) that were included in the "Indisputable Dietary Commands" given in Leviticus Chapter 11. All seed bearing plants had already been given to man as food as well as all fruit that had seeds in it. Genesis 1:29
Notice Romans 14:6.....the one regarding the special days does so to the Lord.
I have found that a more modern translation (not a paraphrase) helps me understand the correct meaning of many difficult passages. I always had trouble understanding some of the King James Version. The translators of the KJV did not have the benefit of modern understanding of the ancient Hebrew and Greek Koine. I believe that through modern scholarship our understanding is now much better.
Using my "New International Version" Bible I find that your scripture reads somewhat differently.
NIV Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
I don't see that the NIV reads differently than the KJV. Perhaps you could point out the differences to me ?
Paul is talking about "Disputable Matters".(14:1) Paul is not talking about "Indisputable Dietary Commands" given by the Lord. Paul is talking about "Vegetarians" whose faith is weak!(14:2) These folks considered ANY MEAT as a "common" food and as such....abstained. The everything that Paul is referring to is the food (meat & vegetables) that were included in the "Indisputable Dietary Commands" given in Leviticus Chapter 11. All seed bearing plants had already been given to man as food as well as all fruit that had seeds in it. Genesis 1:29
Notice Romans 14:6.....the one regarding the special days does so to the Lord.
It appears to me that you are adding to what the scriptures say here. Paul does not make the same qualifications that you do here. And the truth is that you will find nowhere in scripture that he does so.
All of the law given to the Israelites was not deemed necessary for Gentile christians to follow (for instance ... circumcision).
When the issue came up regarding what Old Testament regulations needed to be followed by the Gentile christians ... the Jerusalem Council (headed by James, the borther of Jesus), led by the Holy Spirit ... decreed the following ...Acts 15:22 (NIV) Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.So ... the Gentile christians were required to (regarding the Old Testament laws/regulations) ...
23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.... abstain from foods sacrificed to idolsSuch was the decision of the Holy Spirit and the Jerusalem Council.
... abstain from the eating of blood, and from the meat of strangled animals
... and abstain from sexual immorality.
Also this from Romans 14 (NIV)...Romans 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.
15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
You do not have a grasp of the first century society and church.
Recall from Acts that Paul's approach in nearly every city was to take the gospel to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. Most large cities had a vital Jewish community. The early churches were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. That is why several epistles speak to both (see Galatians, Romans, Ephesians).
Gentile Christians in Galatia and Rome were very familiar with Jewish dietary, ritual and festival law. This is because Jewish Christians were attempting to bind Jewish law on the Gentile Christians - like you're trying to do (although for a different reason and from a different perspective).
THE JEWISH COVENANT IS OBSOLESCED BY GOD IN CHRIST'S NEW COVENANT
THE 10 COMMANDMENTS WERE PART OF THE JEWISH COVENANT
Therefore
THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ARE OBSOLESCED BY GOD IN CHRIST'S NEW COVENANT
CHRIST'S NEW COVENANT DOES NOT INCLUDE JEWISH FEASTS.
If you're keeping the Sabbath, go right ahead and you'll get no complaint from me. Just stop trying to make it part of the gospel. Unless it is restated in the new covenant, it's gone (like unclean meats, circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.)
First century Christians assembled on the first day of the week to remember their Lord by breaking bread. The Sabbath recalls the first creation. The first day of the week recalls the new creation.
Sorry about the delay here.
In Colossians 2, Paul is addressing issues that are extra biblical...i.e. extra "old" testament. Notice here:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
And here:
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
The issue confronting Paul and the church had nothing to do with what is revealed by God and contained in the bible. The 7th day sabbath was created by God and was revealed by God to man.
With that in mind, it's kind of a stretch to think that that somehow Paul is abolishing the sabbath with this single statement.
In context, the Colossians were being taught "philosophies of men" that prohbited "touching and tasting" and "worship of angels".
This heresy was being pushed on the Colossians and was probably related to some type of ascetic sect of Judaism that was around then.
Since the sabbath and holy days are NOT inventions of man, but created by God then the passage certainly can't mean they are done away with.
Quester, if Paul were talking about the sabbath and the holy days of his bible, then he would have used those words in his prose. He did not. There are specific greek words that mean "sabbath" and "holy days". They are:
sabbaton
Thayer Definition:
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
1a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b) a single sabbath, sabbath day<.b>
heorte
heh-or-tay
Of uncertain affinity; a festival: - feast, holyday.
Both of these terms are used in Colossians 2:16 by Paul to reference the sabbath and the holy days. These terms ARE NOT used in Romans 14. Instead, the term "hemera" is used.
There is no justification, save for tradition, for saying that Paul meant that the sabbath that God created and revealed in the bible is obselete. Man can't get rid of what God creates no matter how hard we try.
If you are contending that this is a full and complete list of "rules" that gentiles had to observe then presumably gentiles were free to steal, kill, covet and worship false Gods. Do you really believe this is a comprehensive list?
Please show me scripture that states this. I fully realize that tradition states this, but I'm interested in scripture.
I'm not only interested in the scripture showing the Ten Commandments being done away with....but I would also like to have the scriptures showing the "Jewish" covenant and "Jewish" feasts pointed out to me. I eagerly await, with you, Sinatorhellary's response.
I'm not only interested in the scripture showing the Ten Commandments being done away with....but I would also like to have the scriptures showing the "Jewish" covenant and "Jewish" feasts pointed out to me. I eagerly await, with you, Sinatorhellary's response.
I guess I'm "Doubly Interested"
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