Posted on 06/23/2005 6:41:22 AM PDT by wallcrawlr
Ah Yes, discretion. Pot - Kettle - Black, as they say.
My point was the difference between a physical malady, vs. persecution, which category the false teacher falls into.
If it is true ... and it appears that it is ... that Joel Osteen equivocates on the point of the necessity of a relationship with Jesus Christ for one's salvation ... then I'd be very careful about throwing around the charge of 'false teacher' to anyone who doesn't.
I guess what I'm defending is that God does do it, and that's why I'm not suprised that He would do it for Osteen too. :)
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
His promise however -
Matthew 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
doesn't include first class tickets.
If I could have put more love for Him in that, I would have :)
Gotta go....
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
There I go, verse-pulling again. ;)
Yes and just as he told Paul, it is His grace that should be sufficient for me.
>>were just not as "holy and righteous" as you, huh?
Hogwash. You don't understand Him as well as you think you do.<<
Thank you for your unfounded judgement.
You're still blurring the lines between physical health and material blessings. You're equating the two. Please don't.
We are told over and over again to store up treasures in heaven, and not here on earth; to look towards heaven as our goal, not anything here; that we are simply travelers here, and are not to yolk ourselves with worldly things. To cling to Him, not material things. You just simply don't have a scriptural leg to stand on.
>>He never bashes people for seeking to be taken care of materially.<<
You seem to forget His conversation with the rich young man.
>>Yes, I have spiritual healing eternally, and my heart is so changed on things (sins I thought would NEVER leave), and I rejoice in that. And I also rejoice in all the material blessings I've received<<
Is modesty one of them?
His grace is sufficient. He promised to meet our needs, not grant us our desires.
Amen!
I agree. Osteen is not perfect, his messages are mostly fluff but he is entertaining and he brings people to Christ. People condemn him and most tv preachers. But they are spreading the word, and that is a good thing. I guarentee Osteen and others have brought many more people to Christ than I have or any of his critics for that matter.
Certainly I cannot know for sure, but it does bother me that his messages don't seem to emphasize repentance. It causes me concern that someone may "come to Christ" for what they might get from Him material-wise, without the repentance and surrendering of themselves that Jesus expresses is vital to believing on Him. What if, by not getting the full message, they are missing out on who Christ is and what He is about and therefore not really being saved at all? False doctrine (like Osteen's claim that the death on the cross was not sufficient by itself) can mislead people - the Bible says so.
Oh I can assure you, the Lord uses Osteen to bring more people to Himself in a short season that all these critics in a lifetime. What can you do?
Your definition of "modesty"? Nah. I will praise the Lord as David praised Him for blessings, for deliverance, for making my life that trophy of His amazing grace. I WILL PRAISE HIM!!!! :) :) :) For He is good, and I love Him!
Marshmallow Pastor ping.
Be slow to anger. Osteen might be bringing people to Christ and he might be misleading them horribly with unbiblical teaching. We cannot know the heart of those who come forward to alter calls, but when a teacher strays even a little from the Word (such as his belief that dying on the cross was not sufficient for salvation and it took beating the devil in hell to save us, although the Bible says that Satan is not in hell, but wandering the earth), there is just cause for concern there. If the Lord didn't use Joel Osteen he would use someone else, no big deal since each of us will presented with a chance for salvation. Christians should defend the Word and to stand up for our brothers and sisters, but we should do so in love, not in wrath.
The fallacy of "God will use someone if not this person or that person" is just that, a fallacy. It invalidates your "need" to continue living this life, and you may as well go home now. But that's not Biblical, as Jesus told us that our lives are to be abundantly fruitful. He never said, hey, if there's no fruit, don't worry, someone else will bear it.
Do you see why you hold wrong thinking?
The Bible makes it clear that we each have a specific role to fill in the body of Christ (including and definately not limited to the Great Commission) and if someone is not doing what they were gifted to do, then someone will be brought forward to take their place so that the body may function - even though it won't be in the way most pleasing to God and at the detriment to the believer not fulfilling their role. My point was that I hold hope that those who may be mislead will have an opportunity to hear the true Gospel - we should all fulfill our functions but our Church body won't die because some believers are not fulfilling their roles. Lots of believers have to search long and hard for what their role is and their "need" to continue living is not invalidated while they search. God's plan is magnificent in such a way. I myself am not sure I am using my gifts yet, but I still give glory to God in the searching and take comfort in knowing the body has not failed because of me.
As for saying unbiblical things (I don't think questionable is the correct word for the specific incidence we discussed), I will not be held to the same standard as any pastor or teacher will be, they are held much more accountable. I know Osteen's website used to have that sermon posted if you would care to read it. I don't agree with Osteen's teaching on that matter, but I don't post this in the spirit of competition or ire, just concern.
Osteen to King: "My Message is Only Good News, Not Condemnation"
http://www.olivetreeviews.org/articles/Spiritual_Deception.shtml#newsitemEEEAyEAluyGrLNXQtJ
Taking his cues from Schuller and Warren too...
gag me.
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