On the Interpretation of Revelation

When the Stars Fall: A Messianic Commentary on the Revelatoin | 6/21/05 | Michael D. Bugg

[HarleyD]

xzins is probably technically more accurate in saying it is a matter of those of us (GRPL) saying regeneration occurs before faith and those (neeners) saying regeneration occurs after.

P-Marlowe is DEFINATELY correct in saying GRPL members get thrown out of the joint far more often.

But this is about Revelation so I'll be quiet. (I'm still confused over eschatology.) Just thought I would clarify the GRPL-Neener issue. Some people do get upset and fail to see my dry humor. ;O)

[Frumanchu]

I believe you'll find some members here who are more than happy to take credit for aiding in their departure.

[Frumanchu]

My view on the rapture is similar to that of R.C. Sproul:

"There is nothing in Scripture that says the purpose of Christ's return will involve 'taking us away someplace' for a period of time. That is a constructed hypothesis read into various passages of the New Testament. It's a misunderstanding of the plain and simple meaning of the imagery that is used. The imagery used in reference to the second coming of Christ repeatedly reflects conquest and return from conquest. In the culture of the day, particularly of the Roman armies, what happened when a Roman general returned from a military campaign of strategic importance? What does he do when he returns? Does he just march into his city with his troops and spoils of war? No, he does not. He camps outside the town and sends his messenger into the Imperial Palace where Caesar is notified of the victory. Then the general waits for the city to prepare for the triumphal entry, which Rome made a big deal of. Meanwhile the soldiers with their booty and captives were camped outside the city. Finally when everything was prepared - the triumphal arch through which the victorious army was to pass was constructed especially for the occasion, incense was sprayed and garlands of flowers were spread around - the signal was given: a trumpet blast. Then first the citizens of Rome were given the right to go out and meet the victorious general and march in his procession, participating in his glory, and they would march with the armies coming into the city through the arch because the victory was considered as a victory for the people of Rome - not just for the Caesar or the general or the armies that represented Rome. So it is with the imagery of the New Testament from Paul, who frequently suggests this kind of occasion. The imagery is true of the second coming - the trumpet blast heralds the King coming in glory and in triumph and His people go up in the air to meet Him. Why? To leave? No, to participate in the eschatological promise we have from the beginning of the Old Testament - to participate in the victory of the Messiah, to march with Him in His triumphal entry - not this time on the back of a donkey, but now coming in glory and power and honor and coming with His people, His saints. The notion of 'going to meet" is to meet someone who is arriving for a joyous, triumphant return - and to walk in with them. When Christ returns, His people are going to participate in that magnificent moment of redemptive history when His glory and power (which has been hidden from those who perish in this world) will be made manifestly obvious. Those who are enduring tribulation with Christ who are buried with Him in baptism to participate in His humiliation and death will now participate in His exaltation and His glory."

I do disagree heavily with any notion that we as believers are somehow exempted from tribulation, even that which may occur just prior to His coming.

[P-Marlowe]

P-Marlowe is DEFINATELY correct in saying GRPL members get thrown out of the joint far more often.

And contrary to popular belief, the majority of those GRPL's tossed out of this place have not been tossed out on soteriology threads, but on ecclesiology threads. (Of course that does not count all the retreads that have been tossed).

As a matter of fact, my last suspension occurred not in a discussion of soteriology, but when I tried to step between two people (A GRPL and a [FR5th]) who were engaged in heated debate over ecclesiology and I got caught in the

BTW: It is Definitely. Spell check is our friend.

[xzins]

The scriptures are clear that at some point not all will die, but that many will be caught up to be with the Lord in the air. If that happens at the physical return of Christ, then there will be no one left on the earth except the reprobates and those who took the mark. What are the implications of that?

It is not possible for the earth to be peopled only by persons who have received the mark of the beast. They are doomed to the lake of fire. The millennial kingdom on the other hand appears to have within it a number who are followers of the Lord.

Therefore, the return for the rapture and the return to touchdown on Mt Olive MUST be different events.

14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

20:3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; 5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again. 6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; 9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;

Who are the saints and with what body?

Where are the raptured and with what body?

These who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand appear to be part of the first resurrection....which includes the raptured under a small exception clause, "we who are alive and remain will be caught up...."

Who are the 144,000 and with what body?

Who are those who are deceived by Satan after he is released, and with what body?

[HarleyD]

"BTW: It is Definitely. Spell check is our friend."

Hmmmmm....this was one of the few times I ran the spell checker and it doesn't catch "definAtely". But it's definitely not definately.

[Buggman]

If I hear you correctly, bman, you are arguing for some variety of midst the tribulation rapture. I think you see the rapture occuring somewhere near the end. Is that correct?

That's essentially correct, though I would redefine some terms. For example, there's no Biblical justification for calling the whole of Daniel's 70th Week "the Tribulation." According to Yeshua, the Great Tribulation starts at the Abomination of Desolation, not before (Mt. 24:15ff). Also, I demonstrate in this book that the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are two completely separate time periods that do not overlap, and the sixth seal is the dividing line between them. Since this position believes that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation, but be removed before God's wrath (which comes in the Day of the Lord), Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen coined the phrase, "the prewrath Rapture" to describe it.

As they describe it, the prewrath Rapture can happen at any point between the beginning of the Abomination of Desolation and about six months before the Last Battle. For reasons that I get into in the book, I believe the Day of the Lord will be the whole seventh year (or Shabbat year) of the 70th "Week," meaning that the Church will be around for the first six years of the 70th Week.

All of that is getting a bit ahead of ourselves so far. Since this is the direction that both you and P-Marlowe are asking questions in, I'll round up the excerpts and diagrams that explain my Rapture position tonight or early tomorrow.

For the question of who will populate the Millennial Kingdom, I do believe that there will be those written in the Lamb's book of life but whom will not believe in Yeshua until after He appears on the clouds of the sky--the nation of Israel as a whole (including the 144,000) being the most prominent exception. In this, my view isn't that much different from pretrib.

[blue-duncan]

"Who are those who are deceived by Satan after he is released, and with what body"

Perhaps, like the Children of Israel repopulating the families during the 40 year migration, these are children of those "Left Behind". Remember, there is 1000 years and a whole lot of fooling around going on.

[HarleyD]

This is an excellent description. Your statement,

"I do disagree heavily with any notion that we as believers are somehow exempted from tribulation"

does make me wonder why we would think we are exempted from tribulations. Our Lord Jesus states,

"...In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

or

"And not only this, but we also exult in out tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance" Rom 5:3

Christians naturally go through tribulation.

[blue-duncan]

"does make me wonder why we would think we are exempted from tribulations"

Don't you think there is a difference between tribulations we face every day, i.e."...In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) and the Tribulation mentioned in Daniel and Revelation?

[Buggman]

Therefore, the return for the rapture and the return to touchdown on Mt Olive MUST be different events.

Strangely enough, I agree. The problem is not in Scripture or in my position, however, but in how we think of the Second Coming.

When you speak of the Second Coming, people tend to think of Yeshua simply appearing in the sky, touching down, and destroying the Antichrist's armies all in about five minutes of time. However, the Lord's First Coming encompased His birth, growing up, His baptism, His 3+ year ministry, His crucifixion, burial, Resurrection, and numerous "comings" and goings over forty days before His final departure into Heaven. Why should the Second Coming be any less complex?

I would define the Second Coming as starting with the Lord's visible appearance on the clouds of the sky after the Great Tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31), at which point the Church is Raptured (cf. 1 Th. 4:16-5:2), continuing through the Day of the Lord, when the wrath of the Lamb is poured out, and including the "coming" for Israel at which the Mt. of Olives will be split, the final "coming" at the Last Battle, and continuing right through the Millennium and beyond.

[Rhadaghast]

Hay, love your signiture line, I understood most of it.
I would like to know how to write
'Yashua, a mockshia tsidkanu'
I am just ignorant, please help. Privaledged to be a wild branch grafted into the real people of God.
Gen 12:2-3

[G Larry]

K....
Where's the Tribulation?

....I'll go get some popcorn....

[Frumanchu]

I do agree with you here, duncan. I didn't mean to equate necessarily tribulations in general with the "Great Tribulation" referred to in eschatology discussions, although I do believe the former is a good supporting argument regarding the latter.

[blue-duncan]

" I would define the Second Coming as starting with the Lord's visible appearance on the clouds of the sky after the Great Tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31), at which point the Church is Raptured"

I'm curious as to why you think Jesus would take His bride through a period of intensifying, serial, judgments? For what purpose? There is nothing in the scriptures that I know of that would explain that. The trials and tribulations we are going through now are meant to purify His church, but I don't read that explanation in Daniel, 1Thess. or in Revelation. I do read, over and over again, the phrase "they would not repent". It seems that the progressive judgments are evangelistic/punishment rather than purifying. It just doesn't make sense to me for the church to be going through this. (Of course the next client coming in does not make sense to me too.)

[Uri’el-2012]

bump for review

B'Shem Y'shua

[The Grammarian]

That being said, I'm not so sure I would want to be accepted by the amillennialists. I think I'd prefer being ridiculed by them.

Those darn amillenialists didn't tell me I was supposed to be ridiculing premils!

[HarleyD]

"Don't you think there is a difference between tribulations we face every day...and the Tribulation mentioned in Daniel and Revelation?

You're asking the wrong person. I make no pretense about understanding eschatology.

God is in control. Our Lord Jesus is our Great Shepherd who stands and watches over His flock. And until Christ returns like “a thief in the night” it is He who sustains us. It matters not whether we go through a “tribulation” or “The Tribulation”. It is God who sustains us.

I read through Daniel several times now and find the text problematic to build a whole concept around. I think it tends to be dangerous. Here is another view:

Daniel’s Seventy Weeks and Biblical Prophecy from THE 400 YEARS BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS

[Buggman]

I'm curious as to why you think Jesus would take His bride through a period of intensifying, serial, judgments? For what purpose?

Beloved, do not be astonished at the fiery trial which is to try you, as though a strange thing happened to you, but rejoice according as you are partakers of Christ's suffering, so that when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.
--1 Peter 4:12-13

. . . in which you greatly rejoice, yet a little while , if need be, grieving in manifold temptations; so that the trial of your faith (being much more precious than that of gold that perishes, but being proven through fire) might be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--1 Peter 1:6-7

. . . no one should be drawn aside by these tribulations. For you yourselves know that we are appointed to them. . . [but] God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ . . .
--1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 and 5:9

"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.

"But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. And you shall be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them and the nations. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak; for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

"And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child. And the children shall rise up against their parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated of all men for My name's sake, but the one who endures to the end shall be kept safe."
--Matthew 10:16-22

"Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life."
--Revelation 2:10

If the first century Church was tried and purified by her tribulations, and if the vast majority of the Church around the world is tested by tribulations today, why should we in the Church in America think we should be exempt? Are we holier than the Apostles, who boasted of their sufferings?

This Great Tribulation is not the Day of the Lord--it is not God's wrath and judgment, but the wrath of the Dragon (Rev. 12:12). God will use that period to separate the wheat from the tares, the gold from the base metal. And to be blunt, the Church in America needs that right now.

There is nowhere in Scripture that says that we will be exempt from tribulation--on the contrary, the consistant message is that we should rejoice in it, for it will strengthen our faith and make us more in the image of our Savior.

[HarleyD]

"I'm curious as to why you think Jesus would take His bride through a period of intensifying, serial, judgments? For what purpose? There is nothing in the scriptures that I know of that would explain that."

Dittos.