Posted on 06/21/2005 4:27:46 PM PDT by Buggman
Besides, current copyright law protects the real author of a work from the moment the work is created. Notice and registration are not required to have a valid copyright.
At least I have scriptural evidence for a day equalling 1000 years. What scriptural evidence do you have that 144,000 would be the product of 12 squared and 10 cubed. From my reading of scripture the biblical number of completion has always been 7.
Why sqaure it?
Why cube it?
Why not just accept the fact that it represents 144,000 members of the various tribes of Israel. They are named, aren't they?
By what authority do you assume this mystical figure of a product of 12 squared and 10 cubed?
And if the 24 elders represent the people of God, then who are the 144,000? Did I miss something?
Well, and now we are back to the question of how to interpret these OT prophecies in light of the fuller revelation of the kingdom given to us in the NT.
If restoring the kingdom to Israel were of such paramount importance, it seems the NT would have much more to say than Jesus' quick response in Acts 1:7. He never really indicated the accuracy of their inquiry, and deflected the focus away from Israel and (properly) onto Himself and reaching all the world with the gospel. The disciples were thinking in a fleshly manner. Jesus taught them much with His response. He told them "you're wrong" in a gentle yet forceful manner. The truth became obvious without them having to be hit over the head.
Add to this the fact that with all the talk of the destruction of the temple and the siege of Jerusalem in places like Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 -- passages which all have their primary fulfillment in AD70 -- you would think that somewhere the NT writers would "calm the fears" of the Jews to show that far in the future the nation would yet be reestablished in the land and the temple rebuilt complete with a human priesthood, blood sacrifices, etc. No, rather what we do see is the apostles and other writers consistently applying the appellations and blessings of old covenant Israel to the Body of Christ, the Church. The Church is identified as the sons of Abraham, and as "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people". Words straight from Exodus 19. Titles given to Israel just before God gave them the Ten Commandments, probably the pinnacle of Israelite history. Wouldn't that make fleshly Israel jealous? How could Peter be so insensitive to refer to the Church in terms God had reserved for Israel?
The upshot is that you cannot correctly understand all those OT prophecies without placing them in the context of the fuller revelation of the New Testament. Once you appreciate the depth of the truth that Jesus is our true High Priest and our true Tabernacle/Temple, and that the Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, freed from the bondage of Satan, raised up by God from the ashes of darkness and unbelief, and set in the New Jerusalem, the picture become much more clear.
So when the man of lawlessness takes his seat in the Temple and proclaims himself to be God, where exactly is he sitting?
It only protects NAMED authors or publishers. You didn't name an author. How would anyone know that you wrote it?
Revelation is a symbolic book. The truth is communicated by signs and images. I'm just trying to make sense of images, rather than applying some forced, wooden literalism.
Elders are representatives of the people before the throne of God. There are 24 to represent all teh people of God throughout time, 12 to represent the old covenant people of God and 12 to represent the new. You don't have a problem with the symbolism of the number 12 in this regard, so you?
We already know 12 times 12,000 is accurate to arrive at 144,000. So I assume what you are questioning is the "times 1000" as the product of ten and ten and ten. One thousand is a number of completeness in scripture. E.g., "For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10). We know God owns everything, so the phrase "thousand hills" is used to represent the completeness and vastness of that ownership.
I think the cubing of the number is significant in that the holy of holies in the ancient temple was a perfect cube (1 King 6:20). We are also shown the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 as a perfect cube. I think this is the way God represents the dwelling place with His people. But I admit it's more of a flourish in this case, since we already have the established symbolism of "a thousand" as a large complete number.
Thanks for your concern. But it has been published with my name on it. I was only reproducing here for your convenience. If you want to claim it and then sue me, go right ahead.
Did you get the author's permission first? :D
If you are well versed in the Scriptures on the end times and have studied much of what has been said about the Man of Sin/Antichrist/Beast, you may want to take a deep breath before reading this chapter. It will likely go against most, if not all, of what you have been led to believe about the Man of Lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2. I want to be very clear in what I communicate in these next few pages, so that there will be no misunderstanding. After reviewing the printed Scripture text below, we will talk through a couple of preliminary issues, and then examine this remarkable passage from God’s Word.No sure if I accept it all, but it's something to think about. It is a reasonable explanation unless you are too firm in your futurist roots.Make no mistake about it, 2 Thessalonians 2 is one of the most critical passages of all regarding the end times. All discussions regarding the Antichrist/Beast, Tribulation, Second Coming, etc., go through 2 Thessalonians 2. For many it seems to be the firm foundation for the idea that the church will someday go through a worldwide “Great Tribulation” led by some monstrous ruler out to destroy God’s people. This idea may be true. But it may not be. And 2 Thessalonians 2 may, in the final analysis, have nothing to say about the subject!
THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS by Dr. Larry Pechawer from the book Leaving the Rapture Behind
Wait, I'll check ... yep.
I prefer to keep the discussion among friends. :-)
It is interesting. Thanks for posting.
Actually, HD, I wanted a thread on Topcat's perspective simply because I wanted to read it entire in one sitting rather than have to sort it all from all these backs/forths/sidetracks/etc. that go on on any thread. At least we could have a thread devoted to that topic.
Also, the same with you and grammar.
I have a number of biblical reasons that fit my model and allow for animal sacrifice. That is neither here nor there, though, as are your objections.
The real issue is what the Jewish people decide when they rebuild their temple. I can see it performing as a big synagogue, I can see it performing per the OT complete with sacrifices, or I can see it somewhere in between. It really doesn't matter. At that point, they are non-Christian Jews and they might organize it any number of ways.
Preparations for the Third Temple
It is possible that the temple will be built as a museum.....ancient architectural reconstruction....with the intent that it be for "scholarly reasons."
Other ancient building have been rebuilt with that in mind.
Thanks for the links, AG. You are a true, Christian friend.
In this instance, at least, topcat's views represent my own. I don't really have the time to make a thread devoted to "Why I am a Postmillenialist," although some of those reasons can be found in Daniel Steele's "Why I am Not a Premillenialist".
Is there no article that positively presents the view in its own right rather than presenting it as a polemic against X or Y view?
It's like asking for an article on salvation and being presented with articles on "Why I am not an evangelical?"
If this were possible, would you say that the bulk of Ezekiel 40-48 should be taken in a figurative sense, e.g. the stuff about sin offerings?
This is a common approach to presenting a subject in many circles. Pick any side of the theological/soteriological/eschatological/"you name it" fence, and usually people present X was well as Not X.
Sometimes you need to anticipate the error in order to teach the truth.
Here's another article from my web site with a more positive spin.
[The following is a synopsis of the evangelical postmillennial position by Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen.]There is enough misunderstanding of evangelical, Bible-believing postmillennialism abroad today that it would be worthwhile to make note of the kind of constitutive doctrinal convictions which have been set forth by its representatives.
- Evangelical postmillennialists champion the inspiration, infallibility, and sole doctrinal authority of the Bible.
- Evangelical postmillennialists believe that fallen man is totally unable to do any saving good, cannot atone for his sins, and can become a member of the kingdom of God only through the redemptive work of the Savior and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
- Evangelical postmillennialists teach the glorious, personal return of Jesus Christ at the end of history to judge the world.
- Evangelical postmillennialists insist that at his first advent Jesus, the Son of God, came as the Messianic or Mediatorial King and established His saving Kingdom among men on earth. Citing Philippians 2, Acts 2, Ephesians 1, Hebrews 1, and a host of other Biblical texts, William Symington wrote these Words in his study, Messiah the Prince, or, The Mediatorial Dominion of Jesus Christ: "Christ's appointment [to the kingly office] was still farther intimated by his actual investiture with regal power at and after his resurrection . . . . Christ's appointment gives him rightful claim to the implicit and conscientious obedience of every moral creature . . . . This appointment affords ample security for the overthrow of all Christ's enemies, and the ultimate establishment of his kingdom in the world." David Brown could hardly be clearer: "Christ's proper kingdom is already in being; commencing formally on His ascension to the right hand of God, and continuing unchanged, both in character and form, till the final judgment."
- Evangelical postmillennialists are painfully aware that those who belong to Christ -- the church -- are appointed to suffering in this world, and will inevitably undergo persecution and affliction, in following their Savior and King. Listen again to Symington: "The members of the church have many enemies. The devil, the world, and the flesh, are in league against them. They wrestle not only against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickednesses in high places. They are required to assume the character, equipments, and attitude of soldiers..... Satan, the chief and leader of these enemies, exasperated at his overthrow, makes a desperate effort to regain his lost dominion over them; and although he cannot succeed, he does much to annoy such as have been rescued from his grasp."
Charles Hodge commented upon 2 Corinthians 4 that Paul there "compares himself to a combatant, first hardly pressed, then hemmed in, then pursued, then actually cast down. This was not an occasional experience, but his life was like that of Christ, an uninterrupted succession of indignities and suffering.... We constantly illustrate in our person the sufferings of Christ. We are treated as he was treated; neglected, defamed, despised, maltreated...."- Evangelical postmillennialists believe that the gospel is to be preached to all nations by the church prior to the second advent of Christ, eventually bringing worldwide conversion, and that this is the church's calling from God. Charles Hodge taught: "The first great event which is to precede the second coming of Christ, is the universal proclamation of the Gospel.... The conversion of the Gentile world is the work assigned the Church under the present dispensation." B. B. Warfield argued that "precisely what the risen Lord, who has been made head over all things for his church, is doing through these years that stretch between his first and second comings, is conquering the world to himself; and the world is to be nothing less than a converted world.... All conflict, then, will be over, the conquest of the world will be complete, before Jesus returns to earth."
- Evangelical postmillennialism maintains that the victorious advance of Christ's kingdom in the world will take place in terms of the present, peaceful and Spiritual power of the gospel rather than through a radically different principle of operation, namely Christ's physical presence on earth using violence to subdue opposition. A. A. Hodge put it this way: "The Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, clearly reveal that the gospel is to exercise an influence over all branches of the human family, immeasurably more extensive and more thoroughly transforming than any it has ever realized in time past. This end is to be gradually attained through the spiritual presence of Christ in the ordinary dispensation of Providence, and ministrations of the church." Charles Hodge insisted that "There is no intimation in the New Testament that the work of converting the world is to be effected by any other means than those now in use.... It is to dishounour [sic] the Gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit, to suppose that they are inadequate to the accomplishment of this work."
- Evangelical postmillennialism believes that with the power of the Holy Spirit working through the church's preaching of the gospel, in gradual stages of growth, the preponderance of men and nations will submit to Christ at some time in the future. B. B. Warfield drew this generalization: "the nature of the whole dispensation in which we are living, and which stretches from the First to the Second Advent, [is] a period of advancing conquest on the part of Christ.... The prophecy [of Romans 11] promises the universal Christianization of the world." Elsewhere he wrote: "If you wish, as you lift your eyes to the far horizon of the future, to see looming on the edge of time the glory of a saved world, you can find warrant for so great a vision only in the high principles that it is God and God alone who saves men, that all their salvation is from him, and that in his own good time and way he will bring the world in its entirety to the feet of him whom he has not hesitated to present to our adoring love not merely as Savior of our souls, but as the Savior of the world.... The redemption of the world is similarly a process. It, too, has stages; it, too, advances only gradually to its completion...."
- EPists do not hold that each and every individual on earth will someday be saved, but that at some future time the vast majority will; in Christ's wheat field there will always be found some tares, up until the final harvest in judgement. Charles Hodge taught that "it is not to be inferred from this [Biblical promise of Gentile and Jewish conversion] that either all the heathen or all the Jews are to become true Christians. In many cases the conversion may be merely nominal. There will probably enough remain unchanged in heart to be the germ of that persecuting power which shall bring about those days of tribulation which the Bible seems to teach are to immediately precede the coming of the Lord."
- Evangelical postmillennialism teaches that there will be a final apostasy or falling away just prior to the return of Christ in judgment on the world. Interpreting Revelation 20, A. A. Hodge wrote: "Christ has in reserve for his church a period of universal expansion and of pre-eminent spiritual prosperity, when the spirit and character of the "nobel army of martyrs" shall be reproduced again in the great body of God's people in an unprecedented triumph of their cause, and in the overthrow of that of their enemies, receive judgment over their foes and reign in the earth; while the party of Satan, 'the rest of the dead,' shall not flourish again until the thousand years be ended, when it shall prevail again for a little season." Charles Hodge held that "The great truth set forth in these prophesies is, that there was future . . . a great apostasy in the Church; that this apostasy would be Anti-christian (or Antichrist), ally itself with the world and become a great persecuting power... [which will] be over taken with a final destruction when the Lord comes."
The end.
That will cause the Temple Mount to be divided up into three parts: Jewish, Christian and Islamic. The Jews will seize on the opportunity to build the Third Temple (the secular Jews thinking this will pacify the orthodox). The part the Jews get will be the "right" part or the Christians (probably the Roman Catholic Church) - will allow the Jews to build on theirs, since the Jews are the older brother in the faith.
The orthodox will have found the red heifer, the Levis (possibly from Ethopia), the buried writ, etc. Whatever truth there may be to the Ark of Covenant artifacts being kept by the Ethiopians, they too may be brought to the Third Temple. They already have the funding (and as far as I can recall, the implements). And thus, the Temple will be dedicated and the animal sacrifices will resume.
The Islamicists will outwardly "go along" with the plan to endear themselves in the international community, gain wealth and power, but at some point will set up the "abomination which causes desolation".
And thus the painful part of the tribulation would begin.
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