On the Interpretation of Revelation

When the Stars Fall: A Messianic Commentary on the Revelatoin | 6/21/05 | Michael D. Bugg

[blue-duncan]

Great post! There are just too many promises and experiences of God's grace and mercy to Israel to just casually morph the nation into the church. Their punishment was wandering for forty years because of their disobedience and lack of faith not disqualification from entering into their promised land. Their punishment for idolatry was not disqualification as a nation but into Babylon exile for seventy years. Their punishment as a nation for the rejection of Christ is not disqualification but exile from the household of faith until the prophecy in Zechariah 12:10 is fulfilled and then Israel as a nation will look on Him whom they have pierced and repent. Individuals of the nation of Israel died during the exile, but the nation was preserved to serve God's purposes that ultimately will culminate in the nation turning to Messiah and that also will be part of the inheritance of the saints.

We also have the example of "measuring lives" in the scripture, Methuselah, until the sins of man cried out and the flood came, or Anna and simeon who did not see death until the Christ came. Israel as a nation plays a similar role. As a nation, it has singularly fought for its life during just about every century since the first. The Jewish people have been in the diaspora since Jerusalem fell and a prey for every tyrant, friendly and unfriendly since then. Yet they have maintained their foundational Old Testament faith upon which the church has benefited and pointed to when our scriptures are called into question. Because God has protected the "apple of His eye", when the church looks at Israel as a nation it debates and remembers, actualizes, the promises to Israel, and thus confirms them.

When the Psalmist cries "If I forget thee O Jerusalem.." he is in exile and foremost in his thinking are the promises to Israel of Jerusalem being the seat and home of God. That same cry is still being heard in the hearts of faithful and apostate Israel today and in the church when we cry "maranatha". So Israel is being used even now in her exile as a symbol of God's faithfulness to His promises.

Finally there is the question of election. Israel was chosen by God above all other nations and not because they were righteous, simply because He, in His sovereign will, chose them. In choosing them He made unilateral covenants and promises. Since He made them unilaterally (He swore by Himself), nothing Israel could do could break them, but they could be punished for them or incur the consequences of their actions. He made similar unilateral covenants with the church, one being that all that the Father brings will come to me and I will never lose them, i.e. eternal security. If He breaks one of His promises then what is the great Hope of the church?

I recognize this is long and rambling, I'm taking a break from the garden, but the discussion of Israel and "end times" is too important for us than just slogans. It says a lot about the faithfulness and grace of God.

[Buggman]

I haven't seen anything in his writings that would bring his Christology in question except his penchant for using archaic Hebrew terms that causes everyone to go to their Hebrew dictionaries.

*chuckle* Consider it practice, since we'll all probably be speaking Hebrew in the next age anyway. Not my fault you guys got used to pronouncing stuff wrong.

Seriously, I use the Hebrew names mostly because the Messiah and His Apostles were, after all, Jewish, and it seems right to use their Hebrew names for that reason alone--especially in the case of Sha'ul, who has generally been unjustly maligned as being anti-Torah. Secondly, I'm writing first of all for Messianic Jews, so I'm using Messianic Jewish transliterations. Thirdly, I just find myself preferring them more as I continue my walk with the Lord.

And fourthly, it's to make up for the lack of obscurity and confusion in my charts. ;-)

Seriously, I don't think that it really matters if you say Jesus or Yeshua--God knows who you're talking about either way. If I were traveling in Russia, I wouldn't mind people calling me "Mikail." But if one took the time to call me "Michael," I might appreciate them doing that a lot.

[Buggman]

Buggman, When that's all done, how about a book taking all the puzzle pieces currently evident and tying them into a plausible end times scenario or set of scenarios?

Actually, I go into some of that in this book, though always with about nine thousand caveats making sure that the readers don't latch onto them too much. God willing, I'd enjoy writing a novel series to explore those scenarios in depth someday, but my next book will probably be an exploration of Temple worship and applying it to our everyday walk with the Lord.

Thanks for all your encouragement, Quix. It's greatly appreciated.

[xzins]

The "fatal flaw" of proving that today's Israel is the Israel of prophecy ignores what it means to be on the pre-fulfillment side of any prophecy.

Jesus said, "Watch." He said to pay attention to the signs. He said to search the scriptures.

Now, it is always a matter of interpretation to assert that one is in or near to X or Y era when dealing with prophecy. The only way to speak with "proof" is to speak after the events have transpired.

But it is not fair to those who "watch" (as instructed to do so) when they say X could be this because of X prime, or that Y could be that because of Ysub1. If they are otherwise faithful Christians who speak in humility and appeal to scripture, then they deserve a bit of my attention. They are calling me to the bible, and that cannot ever be a bad thing.

Buggman is simply calling us to consider a particular prophetic perspective and the biblical supports for it based on events/signs.

I should look.

[Buggman]

We don't have the Hebrew, but the Greek literally means "to be amputated."

I'll post my chapter on the Olivet Discourse sometime soon so you can get my take on that particular passage. Not on Shabbat, though. :-)

[Buggman]

Well, I'm off to hang out with and teach my kids. I'll probably log on late tonight, but it depends on when I get in. God bless, all.

[The Grammarian]

And in that day there shall be the Root of Jesse standing for a banner of the people; to Him the nations shall seek; and His resting place shall be glorious. And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains, from Assyria and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Ethiopia, and from Persia, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coasts of the sea. --Isa. 11:10-11

Notice the order of events here: First, the Messiah, the Root of Jesse, will be a banner, a rallying point, for the nations (lit., the Gentiles) who will seek His rest. Then, after this point, God will regather His people "the second time" from the nations. The first time was from the Babylonian captivity, the second the regathering of Israel into a nation starting with the first immigrations of the Jews in the 19th century and running through the reformation of the nation in 1948.

Given the context of Isaiah 11, this does not seem to me to refer to simply a regathering of a national Israel; it's a reference to the Second Coming.

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. F65 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners F66 of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. 15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. F67 16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Notice that in this time period, "the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb," and that "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." These are both marks of the time of the Millenium.

Also, with regard to Isaiah 12, the reference to Zion makes much more sense as a reference to the New Jerusalem, since it refers to "the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee" and, more tellingly, because the events in Is. 12 are supposed to come "in that day" that follows the lying down of wolf with lamb and leopard with kid--again, marks of the Millenium.

Proceeding on, in Ezekiel 37, you are assuming a chiliastic interpretation of these events is the correct one.

O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves. And I shall put My Spirit in you (see Jer. 31:31-34), and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken and have done it...

I am not sure how you get that the Israelites are returned to their land previous to being given the Holy Spirit, but you will note that, as is common with the Old Testament, there is a parallelism of form: " O my people, (1) I will open your graves (2) and cause you to come up out of your graves, (3) and will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when (1) I have opened your graves, O My people, and (2) have brought you up out of your graves. And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and (3) I will place you in your own land."

The opening of graves and coming up out of the graves is immediately followed by God putting his Spirit in the Jews, which actually PREcedes Israel being placed in their own land. And again, it is just as easily a reference to Israel being returned to their spiritual 'land' of salvation, of which the physical Israel was a type. Ezekiel 36 says the same thing:

And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them. And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be My people, and I will be your God. (vv. 17-28)

Note that God's Spirit is in the Israelites BEFORE God returns them to "dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers." So again, I would argue that the passages you have put forth do not support a chiliastic, premillenial view of eschatology.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you both so much for all of your insights! And thank you for the encouragement, blue-duncan!

blue-duncan: Finally there is the question of election. Israel was chosen by God above all other nations and not because they were righteous, simply because He, in His sovereign will, chose them. In choosing them He made unilateral covenants and promises. Since He made them unilaterally (He swore by Himself), nothing Israel could do could break them, but they could be punished for them or incur the consequences of their actions. He made similar unilateral covenants with the church, one being that all that the Father brings will come to me and I will never lose them, i.e. eternal security. If He breaks one of His promises then what is the great Hope of the church?

So very true!

Today I was drawn to Isaiah chapters 43 through 45. How marvelous and faithful God is!

It seems to me that some of the difficulty people have always had with interpretation of Scripture (and especially prophesy) is the tendency to impose restrictions on God's revelations.

An example is the presumption that the Messiah would return as the conquering lion only. The part about the suffering lamb was missed and yet we Christians now know that both appearances are true - separated by an age. But that wasn’t clear back then and is still not clear among many of the descendants of Jacob.

The Isaiah passages are a panorama of God’s faithfulness to Israel over all of time - I'm not sure how many gatherings are mentioned in it and wouldn't venture a guess. But in reading it, I pondered on several - being taken out of captivity in Egypt and Babylon, since 1948 (against all odds), the 144,000 witnesses in the great tribulation, at the thousand year reign of Christ and at the new heaven and new earth.

[blue-duncan]

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked"

This looks like pre millenial language to me and the calling of Israel to Him has to take place prior to the millenial reign since the unbeliever will not be called from their graves until after the millenial reign and that for judgment, not redemption (see Re.20:1-5).

Are you saying the "In that day" of Isa.12 is not the same "In that day" of Isa.11? It appears they are the same and that the Isa. 11 & 12 conflate the Tribulation period, millenial reign, and the new heaven and new earth, including the New Jerusalem, of Rev.21. It is the old seeing the peaks of the mountain range and thinking they are contiguous until at closer range finding there are valleys separating them. Prophecy in the Old Testament was like that.

[Quix]

THANKS. I look forward to it.

[The Grammarian]

This looks like pre millenial language to me and the calling of Israel to Him has to take place prior to the millenial reign since the unbeliever will not be called from their graves until after the millenial reign and that for judgment, not redemption (see Re.20:1-5).

I fail to see the "premillenialness" of the language here. It looks like the Day of Judgment to me.

Are you saying the "In that day" of Isa.12 is not the same "In that day" of Isa.11? It appears they are the same and that the Isa. 11 & 12 conflate the Tribulation period, millenial reign, and the new heaven and new earth, including the New Jerusalem, of Rev.21. It is the old seeing the peaks of the mountain range and thinking they are contiguous until at closer range finding there are valleys separating them. Prophecy in the Old Testament was like that.

I am saying that they ARE concurrent events. It is, however, not in evidence from the passages that they "conflate" the Millenium or the New Heaven and New Earth (to say nothing of the so-called Tribulation).

[P-Marlowe]

Quick question grammy:

Is Satan bound right now?

[topcat54]

I hadn't noticed before because that post was directed only to you. But there it is. And did you consider it?

You're not listening either. Try reading posts 206, 216, and 218 again more carefully and then we can discuss it.

Perhaps you are able to respond with some specific biblical evidence that conclusively demonstrates that modern Israel of AD 2005 is a fulfillment of anything.

[blue-duncan]

You said that the Isa. 11 passage was the millennium.

"Notice that in this time period, "the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb," and that "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." These are both marks of the time of the Millenium."

I said this language from Isa. 11 sounds more pre millennium, i.e.Armageddon (Rev. 19). The language of Rev. 19 tracks the Isa. 11 passage.

"4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove F64 with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked"

Rev. 19:16, "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

This battle comes before the millennial reign where Satan is bound for 1000 years (Rev. 20:2).

Now you are saying it looks like the Day of Judgment, but there will be no slaying of the wicked in the Day of Judgment, just cast into hell. The last battle will be fought with Satan and his hosts after the 1000 years (Rev. 20:9) and they will be destroyed by fire from God not the "rod of Jesse".

The conflation comes with the language of pre millennial battle (Armageddon), the language of millennial peaceful coexistence and rule by the Rod of Jesse, and the language of post millennial, Zion, the New Jerusalem.

[topcat54]

The "fatal flaw" of proving that today's Israel is the Israel of prophecy ignores what it means to be on the pre-fulfillment side of any prophecy.

So what you are saying is that modern Israel is, in fact, not a fulfillment of anything, but perhaps a "pre fulfillment" (whatever that is).

That position seems to undermine buggman's position altogether.

Buggman is simply calling us to consider a particular prophetic perspective and the biblical supports for it based on events/signs.

Which is rather slim.

[The Grammarian]

Don't know.

[xzins]

I am saying the same of your position, which, if memory serves, is some kind of partial preterism or amill....

However, if a military commander were to give you a scout mission, you could return with little items of information that individually seem to mean nothing.

Placed in the hands of a combat intelligence analyst, however, they become active intelligence. This intelligence is used by the commander in formulating his plans. It is his knowledge of the enemy.

Should military commanders stop scouting missions?

[blue-duncan]

"pre fulfillment" (whatever that is)."

Well, it's sort of like what "prevenient grace" is to soteriology, only on the eschatology side.

[xzins]

If Jesus' birth fulfilled prophecy, then prior to his birth, that prophecy was in its pre-fullfillment stage.

Does that clarify or are we just playin' around?

Do you think there was a time in which prophecies about the 1st advent of the Messiah had not yet been fulfilled?

[P-Marlowe]

If satan is supposed to be bound for the millenium and we are in the millenitum, then wouldn't it follow that Satan is bound as we speak?