Seminary professor's predictions on homosexual clergy in PCUSA

The Layman Online ^ | May 18, 2005 | Paula R. Kincaid

[Unam Sanctam]

"Grace isn't about saying you can do what you want – it is your business," he said. "Grace is about coming alongside people and helping them along the journey to the kingdom of God. … Jesus said if anyone wants to be my disciple let him or her take up his cross … that doesn't seem to me like a mild reform of one's life. Nothing less than death is being asked of us. There is a part of the Christian life that involves denying intractable innate urges."

"What we are fighting for – in the sexual issues – it nothing less than the meaning of grace … nothing less than the Lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives," Gagnon said. The fight over homosexual ordination and same-sex unions just happens to be the presenting issue.

So true...

[newgeezer]

By jove, I think he's onto something.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"And the church is currently deceiving people," Gagnon said."

Truth.

[Rutles4Ever]

This will become a free-for-all which will deepen the chasm between wishy-washy, finger-to-the-wind American approach to religion (including the Catholic Church population in America) and the Roman Catholic Church, southern Baptists, and conservative Anglican groups.

Satan desires division, not unity. But his grand scheme may have a fatal flaw in that those who truly wish to follow the apostolic tradition will gravitate back to Rome. These liberal "innovators" like the ECUSA will form sects of "Christianity" which bear almost no resemblance to either the biblical or traditional history of Catholic or Protestant Christianity. Thus, we may truly see a bona fide, united Christianity one day if only because this unfolding, cascading catastrophe has proven that without central teaching authority, religion can be moved by the whim of man, to paraphrase Benedict XVI.

I hope and pray that my Protestant friends will one day come back to Rome. Until then, there is much common ground upon which we can fight the battle against these heinous errors in the spiritual condition of society. The wage of sin is destruction, and while we are called to enter the "ark", those who scoff at our commitment to serving God will meet the same spiritual fate as the detractors of Noah. Pray for God's mercy upon them and us.

[polymuser]

If the PCUSA follows the lead of the ELCA, then the denomination's standards on ordination becoms "merely a matter of local option … a sneaky local option variant," he said.

That is exactly where the ELCA is headed, and they will then have 'non-geographical synods', meaning liberal and conservative congregation groupings. Effectively, two opposing doctrines within one denomination. All in the name of 'unity'. LOL.

I wonder: will choosing 'local option' be a choice of a congregation's council (many lay people), or by the pastor alone?

[polymuser]

"When we look at your country, we can see that liberalism is dying. Liberalism does not build churches. It draws the life out of churches. We see that, and we can help you. For a long time, we were silent. We emphasized good relationships with the Presbyterian Church (USA), but now we must speak the truth to you, and we must pray for you."

That's from this thread: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1427044/posts

[siunevada]

There is a part of the Christian life that involves denying intractable innate urges.

Catholics heard it yet again in today's Gospel reading at Mass:

Jesus said to his disciples:
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

[Mark in the Old South]

As a former Protestant I have to point out this is inevitable. There is no anchor to tradition, it is all about how you feel or what you think the Scriptures say on the matter. So there will be Homosexual ministers, the ban will go the way of birth control and divorce in the Protestant denominations and soon to follow will be adult-child sexual relationships.

[kaehurowing]

"...soon to follow will be adult-child sexual relationships."

I think we will get "polyamory" first. That's already in the works in liberal United Methodist and UCC churches.

[catholic]

I am a convert and agree with you completely.This is why I am a Catholic.

[amosmoses]

You mena there is no divorce in the catholic church? That is if you are not wealthy enough to be granted an "annullment"?

[Mark in the Old South]

You point out a valid abuse, however that does not excuse the Catholic abuse of annulments nor does it validate the Protestant heresy on divorce.

What you may not be aware about the annulment process (and I think you for the opportunity to point out) is the this abuse is almost entirely confined in the United States. Something like half of all annulments in the RCC takes place in this country. Hardly a condemnation of the RCC but a very black eye on this country. One can be forgiven for forming the opinion the corruption in the American Catholic Churches is from close proximity to pro divorce Protestants.

[amosmoses]

Your comments comparing the RCC in America vs elswhere may be valid, but I dont know of any "pro-divorce" protestants. Lumping conservative/orthadox protestants with every heretic that comes along is like lumping central american "liberation theology" priests with all catholics.

[Mark in the Old South]

They may not be pro divorce in rhetoric but they are pro divorce in action and attitude. This is one of those example where a desire for tolerance is a de facto method of encouragement. By soft words on the matter they get more of the behavior not less. Rare is the pastor who speaks out strongly on the subject because far too many are divorced themselves. In my search for a new home after leaving the Episcopalian/pagans I noticed this little trend. Almost half of the pastors I encountered were divorced. My sampling included Southern Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Evangelical (complete with tongues) and several others. There was a time (not so long ago) one would never have met a divorced minister even in the Episcopalian Church.

It is even rare to hear a Protestant Church publicly read Christ's words on the subject.

[Wallace T.]

The Biblical teaching regarding the qualifications for the role of elder calls for that man to be the husband of one wife (Titus 1:6; I Timothy 3:2). I doubt you would find a divorced man as pastor of a conservative SBC church, or for that matter in an independent Bible church, a church affiliated with the conservative Presbyterian bodies like the PCA, churches in the Nazarene or Holiness tradition, or the conservative Lutheran groups like the Missouri or Wisconsin Synods. The mainline Protestant churches and the liberal/moderates in Baptist ranks are only a little behind the ECUSA in their slide into apostasy. Many charismatic churches, although not liberal, are antinomian and pay more attention to the "movement of the Spirit" than to Holy Writ. I suspect the churches you surveyed were mainly liberal ones.

[Mark in the Old South]

That is very interesting but with several hundred Protestant sects it is a little unreasonable to expect my comments to address every variable. The fact is most Protestants are presently in Churches that de facto support or tolerate divorce as practiced in this country. I am glad to have given you the opportunity to point out where your Church differs from the pack but the comments I have made are factual as far as a general statement can go (within reasonable limits)

The problem I point out is your Church is no safer than a UMC member is today. They may be ahead of you today but there is no certainty it will stay that way. In addition to divorce I pointed out birth control. I am not so old (mid 40's) but I remember when birth control was a shocking depravity and was spoken against in many conservative Churches. Outside of RCC I can think of no Protestant faith that does so now. Perhaps yours is a rare exception?

[little jeremiah]

later pingout.

[Wallace T.]

There is no certainty that any church, the RCC included, will not slip from long held doctrinal standards. The traditionalist wing among Catholics regard what they call the Novus Ordo Mass to be an even greater abomination than birth control or abortion. They regard the language of the consecration of the bread and wine in Communion to be invalid and thus not truly the Body and Blood of Christ. The so-called Rad Trads do not even regard any of the Popes since Pius XII as legitimate. These traditionalists are hardly Sola Scriptura Protestants, but hold to the Catholic doctrine of the Magisterium. They believe that they, and not the mainstream of the Catholic Church, are the true guardians of Catholic beliefs and traditions.

Roman Catholicism is as much plagued by dissent and fracturing debate as are the churches that derive from the Reformation.

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "There is no certainty that any church, the RCC included"

Not according to Holy Scripture. We have a few assurances, however that does not mean a large group of "cafeteria Catholics" will not try to move the Church in a direction it is not destined to go. In fact there may be a majority of such //cough// "Catholics" who move in the wrong direction. In fact it is prophesied that only a remnant will be left in the end times. You point out Traditional Catholics and you are right to do so. At present the number of "Catholics" that hold to Traditional Doctrine seems to be heading to that Remnant status.

Re: "The traditionalist wing among Catholics regard what they call the Novus Ordo Mass to be an even greater abomination than birth control or abortion. They regard the language of the consecration of the bread and wine in Communion to be invalid and thus not truly the Body and Blood of Christ. The so-called Rad Trads do not even regard any of the Popes since Pius XII as legitimate."

I am of that Traditional wing but you are incorrect to suggest that the movement sees the Pope in the manner you describe. Those that do are called Sedevacantist (the seat is empty) That is too far for my liking or comfort, I was once Protestant and do not see the need to be High Church Anglican again. The Pope will be the center of the Church until the end. That is not to say there will not be more than one claimant to the papacy. I expect to see this evident in a future Pope but that is not the case now and this is just my personal expectation. It is not an obligation on the faithful.

Re: "They believe that they, and not the mainstream of the Catholic Church, are the true guardians of Catholic beliefs and traditions."

It is interesting you bring all this up about the Traditionalist of the Church (one wonders if you have received a private message) but no matter. The only true guardian of the Church is the Holy Ghost; despite the accusations of detractors or the grandiose delusions of others. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves in the end. I am sure the Sedevacantist, Indult, SSPX, neo-cons and general run of the mill Novus Ordo Catholics all attempt to do this, some impose their own will and others surrender their will. Heaven will decide who is right.

The problems in the Church are many but the church is like a college course in Constitutional Law. It may be a big class (100 students) and maybe only 10 students really believe in the Constitution with 90 taking the course only to find out how they can undermine it or use it for personal gain. Perhaps even the Professor (aka the Pope) doesn't really believe in it but he still has to teach it that doesn't not mean it is not a course on Constitutional Law and he is still the professor. Likewise the Church is a worldly organization as well as a spiritual one even if 90% do not believe in it it is still the Church but on a spiritual level the real Church is that 10 who believe. Heaven knows who they are, I do not, but I will stay in the only place the Church teaches THE LAW even if I have to put up with an idiot professor now and again. You just don't get the credit at the local Frat house.