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Catholic Church is losing sway in Europe (Opinion from Ireland)
Times Leader ^ | May 12, 2005 | Tod Robberson

Posted on 05/14/2005 6:18:48 AM PDT by NYer

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To: infidel dog

Yanked all the way to Chihuahua?


61 posted on 05/14/2005 11:03:44 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

Of course -- it's all the eels' fault!


62 posted on 05/14/2005 11:23:30 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: GipperGal
Right.
John Paul the Great's gift came from his study of phenomenology, a branch of existentialism. He really got to know the "other" in a person (and in masses of people) and more importantly how to communicate to that other and to reach out and touch them so to speak. Now the teenager they quote in this story is mouthing no more than what they are being taught. They are really just like parrots most of the time.
They need to be reached, turned around, and reintroduced to the treasure of the Faith. Not at all an easy task and one that won't be helped by dismissing lightly their complaints.
Benedict XVI is going to insure that the treasure of the faith will be more clearly defined and taught by the one's charged with doing so, IMHO!
63 posted on 05/14/2005 11:28:11 AM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: SolomoninSouthDakota
They need to be reached, turned around, and reintroduced to the treasure of the Faith. Not at all an easy task and one that won't be helped by dismissing lightly their complaints. Benedict XVI is going to insure that the treasure of the faith will be more clearly defined and taught by the one's charged with doing so, IMHO!

Yes! We do need to reach them. Ultimately I have great hope because I believe in the trans-formative power of the Faith and the richness of our heritage. Consider if you will the fact that 2000 years ago this girl's ancestors saw nothing at all wrong in sacrificing virgins to get a better crop. And the Germanic tribes saw nothing at all wrong in raping and pillaging in war. How on earth did the Church transform these people? How on earth indeed. It wasn't by any earthly thing. So don't worry. Don't be afraid. Be confident. I remember something J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in a letter to someone who read is Lord of the Rings books and was commenting on Galadriel's assertion that the elves have been "fighting the long defeat". Tolkien wrote in response:

I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long defeat' -- though it contains...some samples or glimpses of the final victory.


64 posted on 05/14/2005 11:49:36 AM PDT by GipperGal
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To: GipperGal

"Tolkien wrote in response:

I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long defeat' -- though it contains...some samples or glimpses of the final victory."

Very interesting. Thanks.


65 posted on 05/14/2005 11:53:01 AM PDT by SolomoninSouthDakota (Daschle is gone.)
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To: SolomoninSouthDakota
My pleasure. :)

BTW, I noticed your tagline and wanted to say, thanks for freeing us all from Tom Daschle. Bless you!

66 posted on 05/14/2005 12:07:43 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: NYer

""If another faith came along that offered those things and gives me everything spiritually that I'm looking for," she said, "then I would give it a lot of thought.""

The problem with the current culture, not Western Civilization, is that everyone is looking for something for nothing.

I think a lot of people view God as superstition and they are not even aware that they do so. This God who creates us is not some user-friendly, interchangeable part. He is eternal, unchanging and constant.

He is also Redeemer and for those who like a comfortable God, Judge.


67 posted on 05/14/2005 1:32:06 PM PDT by OpusatFR (I live in a swamp and reuse, recycle, refurbish, grow my own, ride a bike and vote)
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To: SolomoninSouthDakota; GipperGal; Kolokotronis
But have you heard a good sermon regarding a great saint lately. Likely not.

Indeed, I have, and on a weekly basis. But, our pastor is Maronite Catholic and very orthodox in his preachings. He ends ALL of his excellent homilies with a reminder of whose voice we should heed - "Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of Mary".

May God continue to bless this holy and humble servant!

68 posted on 05/14/2005 2:13:12 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

"So much for the argument that modernism was unleashed by Vatican Council II and is the cause for this rift!"


No, Vatican II was an attempt to climb onto the band-wagon of modernism and Rome has since tried hard to shake off the ties of tradition. The failed "new springtime" fantasy has now given way to the patently obvious "smaller church" reality. There is no pleasing people who despise ritual and absolute values; chasing after their vote will only incur further contempt and undermine what credibility is remaining.


69 posted on 05/14/2005 2:17:52 PM PDT by Wessex
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To: Knitting A Conundrum

"Missionary work."


You mean a former nation of missionaries now needs missionaries from outside? Well, a few brave SSPX priests have gone over there; hopefully, they will not be attacked and beaten by the natives!


70 posted on 05/14/2005 2:29:56 PM PDT by Wessex
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To: infidel dog
Had the Church held to orthodoxy she may well have declined numerically during social upheavals of the later postwar years, but I don't think she would have been reduced to a state of barely-tolerated irrelevance in so many of her former strongholds, as we now see happening in Ireland.

I have given much thought to this over the past few years, especially since joining FR where a forum of this nature can expand our understanding of other's views. Yes, there may be some truth to that comment but in reflecting over other extraneous influences, I see yet another pattern that has unfolded.

Bear with me on this, please. I was a child pre VCII but still retain strong recollections of church life back in the late 50's, early 60's. I also vividly recall the changes that swept rapidly through the US catholic church post VCII. Among the most anticipated changes, US catholics fully expected that artificial contraception would be approved by the Church. When Paul VI issued his encyclical, HUMANAE VITAE, we were shocked and surprised (I was still a child but recall that announcement like it was yesterday). What made it so 'shocking' however, was that we learned about it via the media. Prior to VCII, radio and television were forms of occasional entertainment. But by the mid 60's, most households owned at least one tv and watched the nightly news.

It may sound trite at this moment in time to suggest this but back then, the media were beginning to test the market to see just how much effect their commentary had on the viewing audience. Since then, television has expanded into 100's of cable channels all vieing for your attention.

Never underestimate the power of the press, media and others to sway public opinion. Consider public education and its effect on young fertile minds. Granted, there were and still are many liberals in the Catholic Church who have abused the work of VCII, but it is wrong to fault it for what we see today. There are a multitude of factors that have influenced catholics who live in a secular society. Some of the changes 'recommended' by VCII and implemented in 3rd world nations, have reaped positive results. There is far more to this issue than meets the eye. If anything, VCII may well have been the right council at the wrong time. Think about it!

71 posted on 05/14/2005 2:32:43 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: GipperGal
How did he do it? One kid at a time.

Thank you for the timely reminder! It also helps to have supportive parents. Great story.

72 posted on 05/14/2005 2:44:51 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
Indeed, I have, and on a weekly basis. But, our pastor is Maronite Catholic and very orthodox in his preachings.

Alright, that's it, NYer. I've decided to make you an honorary Phoenician. You're now Lebanese. Learn how to do the dabke, develop a taste for kibbe-nyee, and remember to cross yourself and say "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!" in Aramaic every time you see something shocking. Welcome to the family!

73 posted on 05/14/2005 2:49:03 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: NYer

Oh and one more thing! Many of those young college students went on to become the leaders of a Movement called Solidarity, which was the pebble that started the avalanche that brought down the Soviet Empire! Think of what one priest can do. Think of what ordinary people can do.


74 posted on 05/14/2005 2:54:24 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: OpusatFR
I think a lot of people view God as superstition and they are not even aware that they do so. This God who creates us is not some user-friendly, interchangeable part. He is eternal, unchanging and constant.

Interesting observation! In fact, when my saintly aunt passed away last year, her oldest daughter (late 50's) commented that her friends often asked my aunt to pray for them. Most were not religious or practicing any religion but looked up to her for her sincere devotion to her faith. My cousin quipped that when asked to pray for someone, her mother would 'rattle the rosaries' as she ticked off the prayers. "All that mumbo jumbo catholic stuff" was her comment.

I was truly dismayed to hear this because her mother, my aunt, and her aunt, my grandmother, were the ones who most influenced and strengthened my faith over the years. Needless to say, my cousins have been added to my daily prayers, especially out of deference to the guidance provided by their mother.

75 posted on 05/14/2005 2:54:28 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: GipperGal; NYer

" Alright, that's it, NYer. I've decided to make you an honorary Phoenician. You're now Lebanese."

Well she is Italian, you know. That's why the Greeks hereabouts are so nice to her. It only figures that our cousins across a few miles of sea in Lebanon would see that she's OK. "One Face, One Race", to quote the late and unlamented Mussolini to the Greeks! :)


76 posted on 05/14/2005 2:57:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer
"All that mumbo jumbo catholic stuff" was her comment.

You know what just amazes me about the world today? We've got people wearing mood-rings and playing with ouiji boards or listening to Dr. Phil as if he were Moses. A gal I work with practically kills herself 4 times a week doing this rigorous pilate regimen (which she doesn't really need to do because she's already fit and is not a dancer, etc.). And yet these same people think a 2000 year old tradition steeped in the wisdom of the ages and shining as the very culmination of all man's aspirations for God... and all they can do is call it "mumbo jumbo"? The gal in my office who inflicts this masochistic exercise regime on herself calls the medieval church with its penances and self-flagellations the height of lunacy. Who's the lunatic? (Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing a return to flagellation or hair shirts.)

This is the height of modern solipsism. Our culture is like a dried out dead branch cut off from the Tree of Life and from all sense of history and tradition, just waiting to be tossed in the fire.

77 posted on 05/14/2005 3:06:11 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: NYer

Oh and one more thing in re: the exercise gal I was mentioning. The real irony is that this exercise gal and the medieval flagellating monk were doing these things for the same reason. They both wanted to life forever! The monk wanted eternal life in heaven. And this gal wants to live forever on earth. I even heard her layout her plan to stay forever young -- botox, acid peels, face lifts, plastic surgery galore. The real question is, which one of them had/has a better chance of achieving their goal?


78 posted on 05/14/2005 3:14:17 PM PDT by GipperGal
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To: FatherofFive

"This is the fault of the PARENTS, who are too busy to be involved in the lives of their children. Parents who give the children things instead time. Money without working for it. Parents who want to be liked instead of respected.

You reap what you sow."

Yup.


79 posted on 05/14/2005 3:20:26 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Rumors of the demise of the conservative Democrat have been greatly exaggerated)
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To: GipperGal
remember to cross yourself and say "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!" in Aramaic every time you see something shocking

Thanks for the honorarium. After rolling grape leaves and stripping mounds of parsley for last year's Hafli, I do feel a connection. Perhaps the greatest compliment I have received came from one of the Lebanese parishioners. When her grandson was born last November, I gave the young parents a small gift - really, it was nothing. The daughter in law told her about the gift and tried to describe me. The grandmother replied: "Yes, I know who you are talking about - she's one of us". That truly made my year! (Please remember this child in your prayers. He was born with undetected severe heart defects, underwent immediate open heart surgery, pulled through and is now in rough shape following his second open heart surgery. The father is struggling with his faith.)

You'll have to help me with the Aramaic (or as Abouna prefers to call it - 'Lebanese') form of that prayer :-)

80 posted on 05/14/2005 4:20:50 PM PDT by NYer ("Love without truth is blind; Truth without love is empty." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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