The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion

Catholic Exchange ^ | May 11, 2005 | Mark Shea

[PetroniusMaximus]

***You guys get your sterile little heaven where you sit around all day singing hymns...***


Sorry OMM, this is not how the Bible describes heaven. We believe in a truly infinite God. It will require an eternal life to get to know Him.

The "work" of heaven will be the endless discovery of the glories of an infinitely wondrous God.

He is our inheritance.

[wagglebee]

I am somewhat confused, how did the nature of Heaven even come up? I was never aware of any disagreement among Christians of any denomination about Heaven itself (I'm just talking about Heaven, not the Rapture, Tribulation or anything else).

[lastchance]

Mormons believe that father God and Mary had Jesus as a result of sexual intercourse. I think this teaching is in the Doctrines and Covenants. They also believe that God was once a man and that we can become gods. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that even approaches these heresies. Mary is honored because of her yes to God and for being the mother of our savior. She is not considered a goddess or part of the Trinity. In Mary we see all the promises of God's grace fullfilled. The same promises that we one day hope to share in.

[annalex]

Why do you suppose this [Jn 19:26-27] is some universal declaration of Mary's "adoption" of the church and not simply a heart-rending example of Jesus' self-forgetful, filial love in making sure his mother was taken care of with his very dying words?

It is not either/or. At that time, John is the entire body of disciples. It is not till Pentacost that the disciples are commanded to teach the world. Presumably, at that point their filial relationship to Mary becomes ours as well. To read John 19:26-27 strictly as some private settling of family matters is to misunderstand Christ's salvific death as an end of a private life and to ignore the symbol of the Gospel.

[Old Mountain man]

Sounds boring. I'll take the Celestial Kingdom.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I am somewhat confused, how did the nature of Heaven even come up?***

Old Mountain man was goading biblewonk regarding the Christian view of heaven.


*** I was never aware of any disagreement among Christians of any denomination about Heaven itself ***

Old Mountain man is a Mormon and they have a vastly different view of heaven.

[SoothingDave]

Just because Mary gave birth to Jesus does not make her accountable for the world's salvation, not even indirectly.

Which do you deny:

A) That Jesus was God Incarnate

B) That Mary had a free will?

SD

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Sounds boring.***


With all due respect Old Mountain man, if it sounds boring to you then you don't know the God of the Bible.

[wagglebee]

Which do you deny:
A) That Jesus was God Incarnate
B) That Mary had a free will?

Great question?

[Old Mountain man]

Yeah, we get it from the great Mormon Prophet, Paul:

2 Cor, 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[RnMomof7]

If Mary really points at Jesus why don't you look there instead of at her?

[Old Mountain man]

No, you are mistaken. I'm just looking forward to doing His work for all eternity.

[SoothingDave]

Great question?

"Scratch a Maryphobe and find a deficient Christology."

--SoothingDave's first law of apologetics.

SD

[SoothingDave]

If Mary really points at Jesus why don't you look there instead of at her?

Gee, maybe cause her soul magnifys the Lord?

SD

[wagglebee]

I am still unclear how it is that the Mormon concept of a "Heavenly Mother" (whom they in no way claim has anything to do with Mary) has any bearing on Roman Catholic teachings regarding Mary. The two subjects are totally unrelated.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***The comma after the word soul is indicative of David's prayer to the Lord for His Strength to better help David praise God; it is a request, it is not a description of the state of his soul.***

It is problematic to base a important theological point on the punctuation of a translation of an original text.

There are many such songs of praise in the Bible. One that immediately comes to mind is Hannah's song (which is "a description of the state of her soul"). It begins with very similar wording...


And Hannah prayed and said,

"My heart exults in the LORD;
my strength is exalted in the LORD.
My mouth derides my enemies,
because I rejoice in your salvation.

"There is none holy like the LORD;
there is none besides you;
there is no rock like our God..."


which is very similar to Mary's...


And Mary said,

"My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name..."


Point is, between Hannah and David's songs it is clear that this is the common vernacular of praise to God. Magnify (Heb: Gadal) is used numerous time in the OT by people to whom you would not ascribe the position you seek to give Mary.

[wagglebee]

To read John 19:26-27 strictly as some private settling of family matters is to misunderstand Christ's salvific death as an end of a private life and to ignore the symbol of the Gospel.

Excellent point. John specifically states that he wrote his Gospel so that we would believe that Jesus was the Son of God and that by believing in him we would have life. That being said, it is obvious that John felt that EVERYTHING in the Gospel was vital for all mankind and our salvation.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***No, you are mistaken.***



John described it this way...

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."


Eternal life is to know God.





***I'm just looking forward to doing His work for all eternity.***

Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." - John 6:29

[wagglebee]

I still contend that the verb "to magnify" is quite different that "to exult." However, there is still the fact that an ANGEL OF THE LORD, proclaimed that Mary was "blessed among women," this sets her apart from every other woman. Can you agree that Eve was created free from sin? And if so, must not Mary (to be most blessed) enjoy the same sinlessness?

Setting all of this aside, why is it so difficult to accept the possibility that God protected Mary from original sin from the moment of her conception? Is it because the Bible doesn't say it, or is it that you don't believe that God could do such a thing? Is it really any harder to believe than the Virgin Birth?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***The two subjects are totally unrelated.***

I believe you are correct.