The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion

Catholic Exchange ^ | May 11, 2005 | Mark Shea

[D-fendr]

Ah, then I misunderstood. You're saying there's no discontinuity while the Apostles were alive.

There remains no more need for the laying of any foundation…

Yes, only one foundation is needed. We disagree on what that foundation is.

For us, it is the holy apostolic church continuing from the foundation to the present. For you guys, it's.. discontinuity.

{^_^}

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I'd still be interested to know just which church that is.8**

Well, I guess I had in mind the CoE.


***I do see a lot claiming credit for tests they never had to take.***

Insightful and very funny!

[D-fendr]

You belong to the Church of England?

[Quester]

Yes, only one foundation is needed. We disagree on what that foundation is.

Do you say that the foundation is anything other than Christ, the prophets, and the Apostles ?

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***For us, it is the holy apostolic church continuing from the foundation to the present. For you guys, it's.. discontinuity.***

We believe in a continuity of moral likeness - i.e. those who have Christ's Spirit and adhere to his words are his true followers - none other.

Anyone who claims to know Him and doesn't live a life like Him is a liar no matter who has laid hands on him.

The Jews thought there lineage would secure for them the Kingdom. John told them that God was able to raise up from the stones descendants of Abraham - not that's discontinuity.

[PetroniusMaximus]

I am a member of the Anglican Church.

[D-fendr]

So, how then are members of the General Synod chosen?

[D-fendr]

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought you guys kept bishops and some form of "apostolic succession."

[D-fendr]

You belong to an organized religion, with ordained ministers, approved doctrine and teachers. I'm leading you back to the authority question.

We believe in a continuity of moral likeness

Is this a requirement for bishops? Who determines if this criteria is met?

[D-fendr]

Anyone who claims to know Him and doesn't live a life like Him is a liar no matter who has laid hands on him.

Again the question is how this is determined and by whom. It, of course, involves much more than ordaination.

The idea of apostolic succession is that it involves a great deal more than knowledge, even knowledge of the scriptures. Apostolic succession means that it is discerned by the apostles, who discerned their successors and so on.

Of course protestants disagree, but their succession, such as it is, is also discerned by humans.

Humans discontinous with the original apostles of course.

:)

[PetroniusMaximus]

***So, how then are members of the General Synod chosen?***


The General Synod is elected every five years by STV.



***Forgive my ignorance, but I thought you guys kept bishops and some form of "apostolic succession."***

Yes, back to Augustine of Canterbury. But as I said earlier on this thread. I am not a denominationally-oriented Christian. I believe there are truly born again people in almost every church that truly preaches the Gospel. I am in communion with all regenerated believers (to the best of my knowlege).

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I'm leading you back to the authority question.***

I know my friend, I know. Your taking the senic route.


***Is this a requirement for bishops?***

Oh yes.


***Who determines if this criteria is met?***

The Holy Spirit, who will withhold spiritual blessing from those who fail the test.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Again the question is how this is determined and by whom. It, of course, involves much more than ordaination***

See #1092



***Apostolic succession means that it is discerned by the apostles, who discerned their successors and so on.***

So are the bad Popes out of sucession?

[D-fendr]

The General Synod is elected every five years by STV

Could this be accurately described as a form of representative democracy?

[D-fendr]

So are the bad Popes out of sucession?

Are the bad CoE bishops?

[D-fendr]

The Holy Spirit, who will withhold spiritual blessing from those who fail the test.

How specifically is it determined this criteria is met before you ordain your bishops?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Are the bad CoE bishops?***

Of course. But the truth of God is not dependent of physical sucession.

It is dependent on moral likeness.

Do you not agree?

(and what of those popes?)

[PetroniusMaximus]

***How specifically is it determined this criteria is met before you ordain your bishops?***


I'm not sure that is is accurately determined in any Protestant denomination. Mainly because "man looketh on the outward appearance but God looketh on the heart."

There are many tares in the field. Jesus said it would be so. The tares are sown by the enemy. The are not, in final analysis, members of the true Church.

[annalex]

Galileo was prosecuted for advocating a theory that he could not prove and that was seen as contrary to the scripture. What spin?

[D-fendr]

Do you not agree?

I agree with your "moral likeness" theory, however, that might make apply to someone of another religion as well.

So I don't think it is enough. One of the primary purposes and values of an institutional church is the accurrate transmission of knowledge/wisdom/spirit.

and what of those popes?

I've always wanted to say this back to a protestant, and you're elected:

God knows what's he's doing, this is the way He set it up, take it up with Him if you don't like it.

{^-^}

So, my argument is from three sides: this is the way the foundation was laid (from history); and, this is a more effective way of passing on the true treachings through the great expanse of time (from practicality); and, no matter how you select bishops, humans do the discerning, saying otherwise makes men God (reducio..)