Posted on 05/02/2005 12:03:36 PM PDT by murphE
They can repeat, on a rote basis, Latin phrases. It's unlikely they understand it.
You want to call that traditional.
You are the type of catholic who ignores history, yet insults the knowledge of others.
You are the type of catholic who wants people to sit in church with you and listen to prayers and readings in a strange tongue, because you think it's good for them and somehow righteous.
You are the type of catholic who places your own interpretation of what the church should do over the clear intent of God in the new testament.
That would have been the correct answer to my question, but perhaps it was unnecessary. Your own words serve as evidence.
Strange, I'm to quit whinning, but your running dogs are doing just fine. Well, I can see the "let them eat cake" bunch is on today.
When was the last time you spoke to an altar boy who regularly serves at a Trdientine Mass? I ask this because I have no idea how you would know what a 5-year old altar server understands unless you have spoken to him directly?
I'm not trashing 1500 years of Church history, just the last 40. The results speak for themselves.
So only educated Catholics deserve to hear the Word of God?
Educated Catholics understand Latin. Little 5-year old altar boys understand it, you can to if you try.
Tu bene loquebaris. Habeo filium qui habet tres menses, et ego loquor et canto ei in lingua Latine quotidiane. Et uxor mea et ego oramus Rosarium (omnes preces, de principio usque ad finem) in lingua Latine. Filius meus sciebat linguam Latinem quando habuerit DUOS ANNOS! Forte, sciat loqui linguam Latinem ante potest Linguam Angliam!!! Facile est, etiam.
You are correct. It is far better to sit in Church and listen to banal hymns written by non-Catholics while some fat lady in spandex stands up front signing the Mass even though there are no deaf people present.
Are you implying the vernacular is for the uneducated? Are you in favor of dumbing down the sacraments in order to appeal to the uneducated? You're probably a big proponent of childrens' masses.
Your reference to the ills of the last 40 years as if it was the fault of saying mass in local language, is indefensible. You obviously don't know the difference between correlation and causation. Also, you discount any connection this may have to the spread of catholicism on 3 continents. But you'll say anything when your case is on the ropes.
A child born blind or with deformities is paying for the sins of his granddaddy? You really believe that?
That's not what the text says: The faithful are also to be taught that the punishments here threatened await the third and fourth generation of the impious and wicked. Children aren't "impious and wicked", for, as St. Augustine says, they are "free from any transgression of their own". Note the example the Catechism gives, of the kings following Josiah. Of Joachaz, says Scripture, "he did evil before the Lord, according to all that his fathers had done" (4 Kings 23:32), and the same of Joakim, "he did evil before the Lord according to all that his fathers had done" (4 Kings 23:37).
FYI, I was quoting Cardinal Etchegary, take it up with him.
I don't attend spandex mass. I prefer the earlier string quartet.
i've run out of steam, later.
The sacraments in the vernacular are not "dumbed down," unless you contend that there's somehow less grace involved because a priest baptizes a child in English.
You misread me. You stated that Unam Sanctam defended his going to a CCPA Mass, but he actually said it was probably a bad idea to have done so.
You're changing the context. Obviously if one is sinful, then all bets are off.
My point is that it is absurd to hold that God visits chastisement on children (regardless of chronological age) for the sins of their fathers if they are not guilty of the same sins.
"Your statement about my catholism is arrogant, wrongheaded, and a desparate attempt to negate a point that can't be negated."
Not at all - merely factual. Your assertion that the Church was "anti-catholic" for celebrating the Mass in Latin clearly puts you under the condemnation of the Canons of the Council of Trent:
SESSION THE TWENTY-SECOND,
Being the sixth under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV., celebrated on the seventeenth day of September, MDLXII.
CANON IX.--If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; OR, THAT THE MASS OUGHT TO BE CELEBRATED IN THE VULGAR TONGUE ONLY; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; LET HIM BE ANATHEMA.
It appears that according to an infallible Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, that you are anathema.
Repent of your protestantism and return to the Catholic faith for the sake of your immortal soul.
You know, I was tiring of the thread, but I had to come back in time to participate in my excommunication by the lord high inquisitor, who apparently hasn't read the new testament. I'm out, your (self-appointed) emminence.
Any valid baptism, regardless of the langauage conveys Sanctfying Grace, so it would therefore be perfect regardless of the language. Now, the Mass...that's a different story. The Mass has been clearly dumbed down. It's probably not as much a function of the language the Mass is offered in than it is the simplistic, Protestant-like prayers, banal music and evil-inspired architecture.
I stumbled upon a Catholic Church in Vienna Austria about ten years ago. I went in to check it out and to my surpise, arrived just after a Tridentine Mass had begun. I was able to immediately begin following the Mass and understand what was going on (although I didn't understand the sermon). Had it been a Novus ordo mass in German, I wouldn't have had any idea what was going on, especially since Novus ordo masses are all over the board anyway in terms of uniformity.
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