Christ’s Second Coming (1)

Bible Search ^ | October 26, 1996 | Doug Focht, Jr.

[jkl1122]

Christ's Kingdom and His church are the same. There is no need for an earthly kingdom since His kingdom has already been established.

[asformeandformyhouse]

The only thing anyone should really "worry" about is being right with God.

I gotta add my AMEN to that too.

But I do find it interesting that there is no mention of a 'rapture' or pre-millenialism in christian writings until around the year 1830 when John Darby popularized the teaching of Margaret Macdonald on the two-fold nature of Christ's return. It's difficult to think that the apostles wouldn't have taught more on this subject or that early writers would have picked up on it.

[thePilgrim]

You ignored the Scripture passage that jkl1122 was referencing. In order to have a kingdom on this earth, the referenced Bible passage must be a lie. You can see the referenced passage for yourself. Hebrews 8:4.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[dartuser]

Sorry, 1st century writing by Erasmus was discovered a few years ago ... makes reference to the rapture.

[dartuser]

Sorry, maybe it wasnt 1st century ... I have the reference at home though ... might be 2nd or 3rd century

[asformeandformyhouse]

Sorry, 1st century writing by Erasmus was discovered a few years ago ... makes reference to the rapture.

Do you have a source for that? I'll do some searches but I'd like to see what you have on this.

[dartuser]

Christs kingdom exists today in the sense that the king has already come and he has subjects in the form of believers in him. But His physical Earthly kingdom, which is the future fulfillment of the Davidic kingdom (an earthly kingdom), will not take place until his 2nd coming.

[dartuser]

Yes, I would be happy to share that ... I will look it up as soon as I have occasion. It is at home in the vast array of notes and articles I have in my files. In the mean time, perhaps a google search might produce some fruit.

It might be Psuedo-Ephraim ... or something like that ... Im pretty sure Erasmus is wrong now that I ponder it.

[dartuser]

I found a secondary source ...

Seems that Dr. Robert Gundry has written a critique of the source and supposedly "dismantled" the pretrib use of this early source. The source is dated in the 4th century.

Guntry has a book called "First The Antichrist" that will have this source listed.

I should point out that Gundry is a hard-core POST-tribulationist so his analysis should be carefully analyzed (unless youre a post-tribber yourself ... lol)

[JohnnyM]

And Melchizedek was not of the tribe of Levi, yet he was priest of the Most High God. He was a priest before there was a Law setting asides the Levites to the office of priest. Christ is not a priest according to the order of the Levites or to the Law (what Heb 8:4 is referring to), but according to the order of Melchizedek.

Melchizedek's name even means king of righteousness, prefiguring Christ who is both King and Priest.

In fact, we ourselves are priests to serve God (Rev 1:6) and we are here on earth.

JM

[thePilgrim]

Your interpretation of Hebrews 8:4 is wrong. It clearly indicates that the things which are on this earth are merely shadows of the real things. Christ cannot possibly be a priest by administring to the shadowy things. If he was on earth, he could not be our High Priest.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.

[JohnnyM]

He is not administering to the shadowy things. He is not a priest according to the order of the Levites and the Law (i.e. the shadow), but according to Melchizedek (i.e. the eternal or heavenly). Christ priesthood is not something that changes depending on what temporal plane he is in.

Mark 15:2 Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Here is Christ saying He is King while on earth. You have God the Father calling Christ a Priest forever in the present tense back in the OT (Psalm 110:4).

JM

[JohnnyM]

Zechariah 14
3 Then the LORD will go forth and (fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.
7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

JM

[rwfromkansas]

Christ reigns over everything today. His kingdom is heaven and Earth, it is everything.

Now, there will come a day when everyone will KNOW it is his kingdom, but he is executing his reign right now; some just don't know it since he is not here in front of us.

[rwfromkansas]

Erasmus lived in the middle ages....unless you are speaking of a different one.

And, I don't take him very seriously on doctrinal matters.

[rwfromkansas]

Whoever mentioned it was probably a heretic anyway.

The rapture was never an orthodox teaching.

[FreeRep]

Be Strong in the Lord -- Ephesians 6:10-20.

"Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Remember "Psalm 2"

[Celtman]

Hebrews 8:4 says that Christ could not act as priest while on the earth, because He did not descend from the priestly tribe of Levi(Hebrews 7:14).

Heb:5:6: As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (KJV)

[jkl1122]

Yes, He is our priest. However, Hebrews 8:4 is clear that His kingdom is not of this earth.

[dartuser]

Yes, I was mistaken, it is Ephraim ... Erasmus' contributions were in the Greek NT text he compiled.

I stand corrected.