This Russian icon, the Vladimir Virgin with Child, is one of our family favorites:
Posted on 04/04/2005 10:01:53 AM PDT by annalex
"Not even a Pope can "dialog" regarding dogma with heretics."
Rome does not consider the Orthodox to be heretics.
There is schism. It is painful. But the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, from Rome's perspective (at least until two days ago), are so slight as to be matters of ecclesialogy, not theology. The Orthodox see greater theological differences, but it varies. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch were able to jointly conduct a service. The leaders of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow are not yet at that point.
True, but for unity the Popes would have to take their place as Patriarchs and bend to the 8 Ecomunical councils not Papel decree. Thus a step down to be equal with the other patriarches. Then we can have unity. Unfortunetly, I'm pessimistic about this happening.
>>My remark [beginning] "I am not convinced of that" referred to your "The differences that the Church has with Russia are founded on dogma", and not to your entire #10<<
If Keating is saying that, I have to assure you that the Orthodox he has met must be altogether different from all the Orthodox I have heard explain themselves on such things as the filioque, the Immaculate Conception and Papal infallibility. Regarding the filioque, for example, I have never found an Orthodox Christian who believes that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son as well as from the Father. When I question them regarding the words of Jesus in Scripture about this they cannot respond intelligently, however, and jump topic like Protestants do when they are faced with dogmatic questions they cannot answer without admitting they had been in error. I would have to conclude that Keating must desire "unity" with the Orthodox so much that he's willing to muddy up his own thinking on the processions of the Blessed Trinity; assuming, of course, that he ever understood the Church's teaching on that dogma in the first place! Perhaps it comes from his association with the "charismatics" at Steubenville. (Too much rolling around on the floor grunting like beasts?)
Right. But this is not a doctrinal disunity, it is, as a Protestant would say, a matter of church administration. It should be a source of optimism.
Pope John Paul II was the first Pope ever to visit England as Pope. He had several personal encounters with both the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Queen. This was achieved despite Rome's 16th Century decree (which to my knowledge has not been rescinded) that all Anglicans are condemned to eternal punishment and the ensuing crusade launched against England (we know this as the Spanish Armada). Rome never condemed the Russian Church the way it did the English Church (Rome welcomes all Eastern Orthodox to receive Communion), nor did Rome ever giving blessing to or outright call for military action against Orthodox Russia for religious reasons. Why then are Rome's relations with the Church in England the warmest they've been in over 1000 years (Anglo-Roman relations were usually less than cordial throughout the Middle Ages) while Rome's relations with Russia about as cold as a Russian winter? Why does the Russian Orthodox Church gladly receive visits from Anglican bishops (even the heretic Frank Griswold), yet won't even entertain the thought of a call from the Bishop of Rome? Certainly Patriarch Alexi II held more in common theologically with Pope John Paull II than he did with Frank Griswold.
Well, perhaps I'm just not up-to-date, but the last time I checked, Papal infallibility was a real sore topic with the Orthodox. If you can show me an Orthodox man who has no disagreement with the infallible decrees of the first Vatican council, I would love to exchange messages with him! Please post one right here on this thread. I can hardly wait.
May have been Aiken and not Keating. Someone at Catholic Answers Live.
So that is what that grunting was in the background...
Good questions. I suspect the answer is political. The Russians are not going to become Anglicans, - they'll never get the accent right. Catholicism is much scarier.
Besides, the Russian orthodoxy has that additional twist about church-state. They can understand Henry VIII well.
One Orthodox man explained to me his version of the story when his ancestors went to Mass in the Roman rite and heard the choir chanting the Creed in Latin. They thought they knew it until they realized they were hearing one new word, he explained. They checked it out, and discovered that Rome had officially inserted the word, Filioque, into the Nicene Creed. When they took issue with this, the Roman authorities would not retreat from this practice and held to the new version tenaciously. This difference was never resolved, he said, and that's why we still have this irreconcilability today.
In light of the practical doctrinal questions of today, e.g., contraception, abortion, women's "ordination," homosexual "marriage," euthanasia, etc., the longstanding doctrinal question of the processions of the Blessed Trinity might seem like a moot point.
However, for anyone who has studied a good course in philosophy, it should not seem so moot. In fact, such things as these examples of "practical questions" can easily be understood to be caused by objectively larger principles such as some aspect of the Blessed Trinity.
It seems to me that the Roman authorities (presuming this man's story is accurate) had based their decision to add the word, Filioque, to the phrase, "...qui ex Patre procedit," because of a sound theological principle, namely, the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son (to the Father, and, by extension, to their creation as well). When it comes to such principles, getting it right in the beginning inherently avoids all manner of erroneous consequences down the line, not that the identity of the consequences need to be known in advance, because error, once taken in and believed, begets more error. In the end, the Faith is ultimately destroyed. That is why it is true that to become a heretic, one only needs to reject one single point of dogma. And that is why someone who refuses to believe in something like the Filioque teaching is, by their own act of denial of truth, a heretic.
How many centuries do we need to live through before that principle becomes evident? The Church Fathers who recognized it in the beginning did not need to have any centuries to think it over, did they?
Be careful where you get your information. Catholic Answers seems to let their desire for "unity" overrule their adherence to sound thinking!
The Pope's primacy of honor is established by (1) Ecumenical Council (of the undivided Church) and by (2) Emperor Julian's decree. The Orthodox Church has no choice but to abide by them.
However, since the Latin Church is considered theologically "outside" the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church by the Orthodox (which, by definition, is heresy), the Pope cannot practically function as the first among equals.
Thus, the seat of the first among equals is considered unfilled by the Orthodox (and is independent of the person who actually sits in it in the Vatican). As long as the seat of the first among equals is vacated in the Church, as far as the Orthodox are concerned, the first among equals becomes the second by protocol (EC, imperial decree), which names the Patriarch of Constantinople as second only to Pope in honor.
Thus the EP is "acting" in Pope's stead, until the Church is reunited.
Your story is correct, as far as I know. The Orthodox don't dispute that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son, they protest tampering with the text without consulting with them. But that means unity on the issue. If we agree on the essence of the Holy Ghost we can get together and lawfully adopt the change in the Creed.
There is nothing backward about the Russian Orthodox Church. Obviously Pyor Romanov (if this is his real name!) had no clue why the Church is separated and what reasons prevented Russia from receiving the Pope. He certainly ignored the whole Uniate issue and justifiable theological basis for ROC's steadfastness.
The fact that some other Orthodox countries were visited by the Pope is more an expression of those countries' political weakness and their churches' lack of resolve (and character) to negotiate with Rome from the position of parity, but rather from the position of weakness and submission.
Let's not forget that Russia is the backbone and the pillar of Orthodoxy and that the rest of the Orthodox in the world are but a small and disunited peripheral factors that Rome could gobble up one by one.
You've given a much clearer and more detailed explanation than I did, my brother. Thanks!
The Orthodox do dispute that the HG procedes from the Son. The issue of filioque has to do with the clarity of the First Cause and Source, which is always the Father. These are eternal, and absolute relationships, not a chronological order.
This Russian icon, the Vladimir Virgin with Child, is one of our family favorites:
Nice thoughts, thank you fortune cookie.
Here's some crystal ball gazing.
The next Pope will be a conservative moralist and theologian. There will be no drift from any of the moral or disciplinary stances of the church: abortion, divorce, birth control, euthanasia, married priests.
Further, my bet is that the next Pope will be either a Mexican or a Brazilian, and more devoted to a conservative LITURGY than even JP II was.
I expect he will be a more strict disciplinarian, and especially if he is Mexican, he is not going to be a bit shy about asserting the authority of the monarchic papacy over North American bishops who depart from the doctrines of the Church. Of course, if he is a Spanish-speaking Pope (as opposed to a Portuguese-speaker) he will have dramatic support from the 50% (and growing) of American Catholics who are Latinos, and that support will be enhanced, rather than diminished, if he is very direct about imposing discipline on American bishops.
Another thing I would not be surprised to see is a decree of a general permission, from Rome, for parishes to use the Latin Mass, removing the possibility of bishops blocking that. If the Latin Mass were not able to be blocked locally, because Rome removed the ability of bishops to prevent it, there would be a lot more Latin masses, and THAT would invigorate and embolden the conservative elements of the Church, even as it embittered some of the more liberal elements. (The new Pope, whoever he is, will NOT impose the Latin Mass universally.)
A general return to, and expansion of, the Latin Mass will draw the Roman West closer to the Greek and Russian East because the the prayed liturgy IS the faith. Also, a wide return to the Latin Mass will correct the priest shortage.
The fact is that orthodox, arch-traditional Catholic seminaries are not having trouble attracting candidates. It is the general, moderate to liberal seminaries (who have dominated non-Latino America) who are experiencing the priest shortage.
The new Pope will not be able to be the grand diplomat that John Paul II was. Could anyone be? But I expect he will be much more of a trench warrior in the battle for the heart and soul of Western culture itself. The spiritual war for the Culture of Life in the West is hotter than it has ever been, and the new Pope will, I expect, dig in and fight it. Having a Latin American at the helm will guaranty that no ground is given, even to wavering elements within the Church.
And in the long run, that will make for a Church that moves, by what it does, much closer to Orthodoxy in a step.
I hope your predictions come true.
Pyotr Romanov did not use the word "backwardness". I did in some paraphrase, which may or may not be accurate. It is not clear if the author longs for some superficial westernization, which would be a bad thing for Russia, or for true spiritual unity. You should give him a benefit of the doubt and assume the latter.
The notion that the Vatican goes around gobbling up smaller churches is unfortunate and seems to me a part of the same petty intransigence that prevented the Pope's visit to Moscow. I've lived in some areas of Slavdom with strong Catholic presence, and travel trough others, and I can assure you that I saw no trace of the Swiss Guard occupation troops anywhere.
On the Filioque issue, do the Orthodox dispute that Christ breathed the Holy Ghost into the Apostles? If they don't then we have a textological problem and not a theological one.
"The Orthodox don't dispute that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son, they protest tampering with the text without consulting with them."
Since when? The recent agreed statement of the North American Consultation of Orthodox and Roman bishops on the matter has urged us to "refrain" from refering to each other's formulation of the procession of the Holy Spirit as heretical, but since various Romans on these threads feel no compunction about adopting the Frankish position of the barbarian Charlemagne (a position rejected by the then Pope, by the way)that the original counciliar formulation of the procession of the Holy Spirit is heretical, let me state as clearly as I can that the Roman formulation of filioque, a formulation which the Consultation urged be dropped in all new translations of the Creed and in catechetical settings, is a massive heresy! It proclaims a strange double procession of the Holy Spirit which destroys the unity of the Trinity both within and without the Godhead. This isn't some arcane theological point which has no meaning in the modern world. The procession as established by the One Church and soundly grounded in Scripture (John 15:26). It would be too simple to ascribe this error to the simple and sadly undeveloped state of Roman pneumatology at this late date. Rome has now, and has had for some centuries in fact, the benefit of the far more developed pneumatology of the Eastern Fathers, even if the schismatics of the 11th century didn't. The only excuse for maintaining the filioque at all is the trap the innovations of Vatican I got the Roman Church into. Even the Romans recognize that.
For anyone interested in the Agreed Statement, here's a link: http://www.goarch.org/print/en/news/releases/articles/release8676.asp
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