Gay Advocacy Group: We'd Rather Walk Apart

Stand Firm (Mississippi) ^ | 2/28/2005 | unknown

[AlbionGirl]

Don't be such a legalist! :)

LOL! I guess you can take the girl out of Rome, but you can't take Rome out of the girl.

My spiritual father said a few Sundays ago that its highly unlikely many of us will enter the kingdom of Heaven not smelling at least a bit of charred garment!

Is this the good news?

[Kolokotronis]

"Is this the good news?"

I THINK so; of course I accused Abouna of preaching purgatory and got a cuff for my trouble!

[Agrarian]

The lives of the saints are filled with stories of men who were so holy that their faces were shining like that of Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai -- yet they are weeping tears of repentance as they die. One elder, when asked if he had any regrets as he was about to die, answered: "I wish I could just have one more day to repent."

Repentance, it seems, is a state of mind and heart, a continuous process, not a legality to check off on a list.

One of the famous Optina elders (Russian) once wrote that we need to ask God continually for forgiveness for our sins, even when we feel we have nothing to repent for. He said that as we say the words, it will soften our hearts, and we will begin to see the sins that have remained hidden to ourselves. Note, this is not a "guilt-inducing" process. The feeling of compunction that the Fathers talk about is so far away from the feeling of guilt and condemnation that they aren't even in the same universe. The tears that are produced are tears of love, thankfulness, not of being racked with guilt. Even "remorse" as the Fathers speak of it is completely different from what we think -- the effect is one that looks to the future, that makes for a determination to draw closer to God and to be like him.

What is key is the overall disposition of our souls toward God, and an active life of prayer in the Orthodox Church takes care of that -- "the words soften our hearts." Legalism drops away like a torn veil -- an irrelevancy.

[The Grammarian]

I am reminded of what Luther is purported to say of a Roman Catholic debate opponent: "I ask for the Scriptures and Ek offers me the fathers. I ask for the Sun, and he shows me his lanterns. I ask, Where is your Scriptural proof? And he adduces Ambrose and Cyril. With all due respect to the Fathers, I prefer the authority of the Scripture."

I haven't got time to respond in much detail now, so I will use this post as a bump for later when I am free.

[Agrarian]

The writings of the Fathers are, above all else, the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. With 10,000 Protestant denominations in the US and probably that many different interpretations of this or that point of Scriptural doctrine within each denomination or non-denomination, the problem with sola scriptura is pretty obvious.

You are doubtless convinced that your interpretation of Scripture is the right one, as are the countless people who disagree with you on one or more point of interpretation.

Some things in Scripture are blindingly obvious and incapable of misinterpretation: Thou shalt not steal. Homosexual behavior is a sin.

Other things are not so obvious, and have become endless sources of contention. We Orthodox Christians study the Scriptures, and our understanding is guided by the "consensus patrum" -- the consensus of the Fathers. For the Fathers don't always all agree with each other. But if the same teaching permeates every corner of Orthodox writings, and is the consensus teaching through the centuries of the life of the Church, then we feel confident in this interpretation of Holy Scripture.

We believe not only that the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Scripture, and that the Holy Spirit preserved the text of Scripture (which even most conservative Protestants don't believe, since they hold that only the "original autographs" -- which no one has seen or ever will see -- were inspired and infallible); we also believe that the Holy Spirit has, through the Church, preserved the apostolic understanding of Holy Scripture.

And it is ultimately the understanding of the meanings and doctrines of the Scriptures, and how they are applied in our lives in seeking salvation, that matter.

[AZConcervative]

They will quite simply go to hell for their lack of belief in Christ as the only true way. Good people by society's standards will also go to hell if they do not believe that. We have all known good, kind people, who did not believe this, and Christ stated quite clearly, "The only way to the Father is through me," Therefor, unfortunately, they are not in the Kingdom of Heaven; and there are only two options. Many non-christians do innumerable great deeds, but this will not grant them salvation. Sorry, deeds do not matter!

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

But why do they need to accept Christ if not for forgiveness of sins? There are no "good people." There are only sinners condemned to hell for their sins. Some sinners are worse than others. Some people have a form of righteousness, having the laws of God written on their hearts. But none are sinless. That's why they need Christ -- without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Without Christ they stand condemned, not for disbelief, but for sins.

You know -- LOL! -- we are not saying anything that different. My point is that God still hates sin -- deeds still matter to Him. If belief were all that mattered then He sure went to a lot of unnecessary suffering to redeem our condemned souls. PAYMENT had to be made for our sins. Christ did not abolish the law and it's just sentence -- He fulfilled its requirement. Paid in Full!!!! Only for those who receive it (that's where we agree). Those who reject Him still stand condemned for their sins -- a just condemnation, for all have sinned.

[The Grammarian]

Also bumped for later, since I have a paper to write within the next two hours.

[AZConcervative]

I agree. I think the Lord loves these types of discussions. He just wants to be talked about. I have a feeling you and I may be able to ask Him ourselves one day. God Bless.

[Agrarian]

Goodness, write your paper and good luck! We really don't need to discuss or dissect this matter, which could probably turn into an endless thread. I just wanted to give you a little insight into where we are coming vis a vis Holy Scripture as we articulate what we believe -- the intent of which is rarely to try to win arguments with others, but rather is intended to convey what the Orthodox Church teaches, for those who find it of interest.

If it's of interest, great. If it's not, it's a whole lot more fun to eat our lamb and baklava and shoot the breeze about other things...

[Kolokotronis]

"If it's not, it's a whole lot more fun to eat our lamb and baklava and shoot the breeze about other things..."

You "Muricans" just love that baklava, don't you! Well, as she who must be obeyed says, "Come for the food, stay for the religion!" As for the lamb...better load up this weekend 'cause its all over Sunday!

[Agrarian]

I just got back from the store with some lamb, and will roast it tonight. And yes, I can eat baklava by the pound...